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10-15-2010, 06:23 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
That is true, but I was more talking about new customers. You know enough to simply make an educated choice. New people will simply flock to the big two, not Pentax.
you spent more time in Pentax forum than the Nikon camp, why?

10-15-2010, 06:26 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
That is true, but I was more talking about new customers. You know enough to simply make an educated choice. New people will simply flock to the big two, not Pentax.
From what I see new customer usually DOES NOT know enough to make an educated choice, they compare specs mostly, maybe read a little review on the web, even worst some of them just walk into white goods shops and listen to the salesperson....

But honestly, new people will simply flock to the big two....? How do you come to that conclusion? Price is the single deciding factor in buying an DSLR?

Oh and from your previous reply.

QuoteQuote:
and I bet it does just about the same as a sensor that has been on the market for a year


If you don't see the improvment in sensor performance you won't be looking at updating to K-5 anyway...Price of K-5 will be irrelevance to you....
10-15-2010, 06:51 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
I also think maybe I might be reading more into it than really exists and these early sales are nothing other than early adopter aberration as well as a bit of, say, Amazon nailing pre-order folks for the max price given the apparent lower number of bodies to which they have access.
My theory is that it's an aberration. Amazon is showing the K-5 as available for pre-order and not yet released. They only have the MSRP to go by, not the typical Pentax street price that is 20-30% off of MSRP. People pre-ordered, possibly with the expectation to get the street price (80% of $1600 = $1280) once it was actually released. Apparently Amazon obtained and then shipped a limited number of bodies before officially stocking it. The first few pre-orderers get early copies and a bill for the full MSRP for the privilege. I have absolutely zero expectation that the street price of the K-5 will be $1600 when the channel is fully populated. I'd expect it to be $1120-$1280 by Black Friday.
10-15-2010, 07:35 PM   #79
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US is the only country where d7000 is significantly cheaper the k-5
Considering the small US pentax market, economic problems and devaluing currency, why would pentax heavily discount just to compete with an underpriced nikon. When you can sell all the stock you can make you sell at what ever price people will pay. When demands slows then the price will drop like normal.
Any sensible person will wait for the reviews to see if nikon cut corners on IQ like the d90.
They are already getting reports of soft photos from d7000 although its quite possibly user error or cheap lenses causing the issue. The key is to wait and see.
Pentax would be much better using their limited resources focusing on the asian markets where the compact size has much more appeal.

10-15-2010, 09:02 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by elpolodiablo Quote
From what I see new customer usually DOES NOT know enough to make an educated choice, they compare specs mostly, maybe read a little review on the web, even worst some of them just walk into white goods shops and listen to the salesperson....
But honestly, new people will simply flock to the big two....? How do you come to that conclusion? Price is the single deciding factor in buying an DSLR?
That's exactly what I said earlier, the normal new customer doesn't make an educated choice, and heads straight for Canon and Nikon without ever looking at Pentax. I came to that conclusion by simply looking at the number of Canon's and Nikon's sold vs. the number of Pentax cameras sold. Just go to an airshow and count the cameras you see. Last one I was at I counted about 40 CaNikons and 2 Pentax, including myself.

I chose a Pentax as my first dSLR because the K200d at the time was cheap and had awesome features. In body IS and WR for under $500. But now, Pentax is still awesome in my opinion, but I am only 20, and I have a long life ahead of me and wanted to buy into a system I could really grow into. Pentax, while has some excellent primes, I simply am not a prime person. I like my big zooms. I also like doing videos. Pentax doesn't really have a huge selection of big zooms. Also, I will probably be getting a 5D mark 3 when they arrive sometime next year. I will be able to have excellent reach with the 7D at 1.6x crop but also have the wideness of FF. Maybe one day I will pick up a APS-H also, and have the full lineup. I like Pentax, but I can't see myself growing into them.
10-15-2010, 09:21 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
That is true, but I was more talking about new customers. You know enough to simply make an educated choice. New people will simply flock to the big two, not Pentax.

Agreed!

I'm thinking about Nikon...................OK, I'll wait a bit!
10-15-2010, 09:58 PM   #82
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Interesting points of view, and points of difference, from some obviously very experienced and very keen photographers!
If the K5 appears more expensive, feature for feature, than the competition and Pentax is happy with the price point that they have set, because of the inherent value in the product, then Pentax has to sell it! Pentax has to get into serious marketing and promote the value. They have to justify, to the average consumer, to the mum and dad purchaser, to the casual photographer as well as the informed enthusiast, that it is worth spending the extra dollars because this camera (K-5, K-r, K-whatever) is value for money.
The colours of the K-r may well bring into the brand more young purchasers; a great marketing move (even though I wouldn't be seen dead with one). The more people that start with Pentax the better future the brand has.
Now Pentax has to promote the inherent value of the K-r as a camera, which is different to selling it as an accessory.
Is the K-5 worth twice the price? Don't compare BMW with Skoda - different cost base completely - compare one Ford model with another - is a Taurus worth $x more than a Fiesta? If it is, why? If it is not, why not? You can fit an extra half person in Taurus, but you can still only travel at the same (legal) speed limit, and they will both get you reasonably reliably from one side of the county to the other. Why pay more for the Taurus? But people do.
10-15-2010, 11:25 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
I would like to know why people keep saying this...The K-5 hasn't proved it's worthiness at all yet. Comparing my 7D shots to the recent K-5 shots posted, the 7D doesn't look much different at all....How can it set a new standard when it hasn't even been tested yet. All this snowballed after one image was posted and people were claiming the K-5 king of the APS-C world, and I bet it does just about the same as a sensor that has been on the market for a year.

Like I said before, people are going to see Nikon D7000 that is weather sealed and magnesium for $1200. They aren't going to care that it has plastic in the front. Then they are going to see a weather sealed Pentax K-5 for $1600. Then they are going to compare specs. Oh wow same sensor, that must mean they take the same pictures. Oh both weather sealed, even though we all know K-5 is ten times more WR. And D7000 is $400 cheaper, that means I can get nice $400 lens to start out with. Also it's a Nikon! Yay! Oh but Pentax has built in IS, thats cool! Oh but I can just buy a lens with IS in it, so who cares about old lenses!

If we want the K-5 to sell well(and I do, more competition, and I really like it), Hoya needs to attract new customers. They aren't going to pull any new customers in looking for a high end SLR when the D7000 is available. They need a wider fanbase. Also having the K-r priced so high is another disadvantage. If Pentax could release a sub-$500 entry SLR, maybe even the Kx rebadged with some newer features, they could attract some future buyers. But currently their entry SLR is $800. Not going to draw anyone in at that price. Ok rant over. Hopefully somebody understands what I am saying.
To me, the 7D and K5 have completely different targets. For me, if the K5 and 7D had exactly the same performance, the K5 would win because it is a smaller, more portable camera. Tell me which one you would like to pack for ten miles: a 7D with a 17-55 f2.8 or a K5 with a 16-50 f2.8 (or better yet a 15 mm limited). The answer is clear.

The thing I don't understand is why Pentax doesn't get their gear into outdoors magazines. There are plenty of hikers/outdoors enthusiasts who would jump at a camera built with tight specs and great image quality, but they just don't know about it.

Both the kx and K7 will be available for some time to come, so for the present,
Pentax really has four tiers of camera, all with good performance.

In particular, the availability of reasonably priced sealed lenses, including the new super zoom, makes the Pentax offerings particularly appealing (how many sealed Nikon lenses are available for under 1000 dollars -- how many are available at all? Just asking).

10-15-2010, 11:38 PM   #84
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Speaking of the 7D - when we are talking about the 7D, remember the bar is set pretty low. If the K-x can match or beat the 7D in terms of IQ - including lph resolution past ISO 400 - the K-r and K-5 should have no problem at all.

Pic partly related:




Last edited by rawr; 10-15-2010 at 11:45 PM.
10-15-2010, 11:57 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fl_Gulfer Quote
This is the reason the price is 1599.00 instead of 1399.00.
The dollar has lost 15% of its value against the euro since early June.

Source
BBC News - Fed's Bernanke signals new round of quantitative easing
Early June was a short lived anomaly as it was the highest the Dollar had been against the Euro in 5 years at 1.18...but a month later it is back up to 1.30 or so and now is 1.40 or so. Current value is roughly the same value as it was this time last year and this time 2 years ago. When the K-7 and K20D were released, the dollar versus Euro was what is is currently.

edit: Currently the price of the K-5 in Europe is 1459 euros, which comes to $2039 USd.

Jason

Last edited by Jasvox; 10-16-2010 at 12:09 AM.
10-16-2010, 12:03 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by FullertonImages Quote
Plus, everyone keeps railing the K-5, but the K-5 isn't the problem. The D7000 is the problem and is massively upsetting the apple cart. Take the D7000 out of the picture and then think things over.

You've got the K-7 which entered the market to compete with the D300 and the 50D, with a cheaper price. Bested the 50D, and was roughly equal to the D300, even though everyone just tore it apart forthe ISO (which if you compare Raw for Raw isn't that bad compared to D300).

Then the D300s comes out and beats the K-7, but opens at $1,600, and it still holding strong (not for long) at $1,500. Then comes out the 7D which opens at $1,800 and is holding strong at $1,600 (also not for long). Pentax looks at the market and says, we can release a camera that will smoke both of these camera in most respects, for less than they debuted at, and with a price that will still be competitive against them. They do exactly that, setting new standard in aps-c high ISO quality, that is a quantum leap for a single generation change. Put it in a very sexy and awesomely built body and you've got something that is very attractive at that pricepoint.

Then Nikon comes along and slashes the bottom out of the semi-pro aps-c market with the D7000. I think the K-5 is very justly priced for what it offers, and where the standards should be. The 7D was priced very high (highest aps-c ever?) and the D300s debuted higher than the D300 debuted at. So it makes perfectly fine sense that the K-5 should be priced high, and above where the K-7 debuted.

I can only think of two things in regards to the D7000's price. 1) You get what you pay for, and there something hiding in wait in the cheapness department that will leave people unsatisfied. Or 2), Nikon will make absolutely no money off of this camera, even if they sell a ton. But they will pick up a ton of market share, which is ultimately worth alot. But on the other hand, they will pick up a ton of market share who all expect a shit-ton of feature for practically free, which can be troublesome (cough-cough-Pentax...). I'll be interested to see the build quality of the D7000. They're billing it as Magnesium alloy body, because people instantly associate that with tough build quality, but I wonder how cheap and crappy of a job they did with it, just so they could put those words on the press release.
Its not the D7000's fault it is priced at $1199 versus K-5's $1499.....what do you say about the D60 which is being released at 1099? At $1499, the K-5 is $300 over priced.

Jason
10-16-2010, 01:40 AM   #87
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the k-5 is metal, sealed and has more pixels, more stuff such as horizon correction etc. if you want the cut down k-5 (kr) buy that, if you want the real deal get that...i see it as pentax giving us the choice, and also underpricing it's entry level offerings to get a foothold....it's certainly not sinister as all the carping would lead us to believe.......bored now....
10-16-2010, 05:16 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Its not the D7000's fault it is priced at $1199 versus K-5's $1499.....what do you say about the D60 which is being released at 1099? At $1499, the K-5 is $300 over priced.

Jason
This is another thread which illustrates the mistake Pentax made a couple of decades ago when they decided to be the supplier of cameras to people who are cheap.
By being the cheap guys, they never were able to keep at the leading edge of technology, so we had to tolerate second rate bodies, but we put up with that because they were, at least, cheap and the lenses were why we shot with Pentax anyway.
It was a decision that paved the way for some large company to buy them out or go bankrupt.
So now we have a current generation of users who are crying because Pentax is both behind the technology curve and is pricing cameras in such a way that they will recover the cost of production.
Do you really think that Pentax can price the K5 to compete with similar spec cameras that will sell several hundred times more units than the K5 will and make money doing it?
Do you really long for the old days when we could take 5 pictures a minute with a camera that was so slow in every respect as to be almost unusable?
Or would you prefer the short term view and have Pentax fire sale price their cameras and go out of business entirely?
If a couple of hundred dollar difference in price is that critical to you, go buy the cheaper camera from the other manufacturer. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy a K5.
10-16-2010, 06:22 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by elpolodiablo Quote
From what I see new customer usually DOES NOT know enough to make an educated choice, they compare specs mostly, maybe read a little review on the web, even worst some of them just walk into white goods shops and listen to the salesperson....
There is an opinion pyramid. Convince the opinion leaders and they will convince the magazine test authors and salespeople. Who in turn convince the new customers ...

At least this is how things usually turn out in my country. Marketing money can only do that much about it ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
edit: Currently the price of the K-5 in Europe is 1459 euros, which comes to $2039 USd.
Jason
Jason, my earlier remark about annoying ignorance of some wrt to VAT in the EU did apply to you too.

1459€ DE are $1714 US today. The current low street price ( http://www.foka.nl/site/pentax-k5-body-p-28335.html -- 1199€ vs. 1189€ for D7000) are $1409 US today.

The dollar did not loose much in the past, that's true. But it did loose 10% wrt € since Sep. 12. This is relevant considering the exact sequence of D7000 and K-5 price announcements in the US.

Last edited by falconeye; 10-16-2010 at 06:43 AM.
10-16-2010, 07:39 AM - 1 Like   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
That's exactly what I said earlier, the normal new customer doesn't make an educated choice, and heads straight for Canon and Nikon without ever looking at Pentax. I came to that conclusion by simply looking at the number of Canon's and Nikon's sold vs. the number of Pentax cameras sold. Just go to an airshow and count the cameras you see. Last one I was at I counted about 40 CaNikons and 2 Pentax, including myself.
OK, the normal new customer may be minimally educated WRT dslrs. Or they even may be well educated in it (I feel I was fairly educated about SLR and DSLR) when I went looking. So, they walk into their local Costco, WalMart, Best Buy...and see what? Nikon and Canon. They hear Paul Simon singing "I got a Nikon camera..." The problem isn't that they're heading straight for Canon or Nikon, it's that it's all they can see and play around with. And if the store doesn't carry Pentax, what employee (who is probably barely trained in anything photographic) will even know about Pentax and where to send the customer to look at them?

I had the advantage in that my film SLR days made me know at least a starting point in what I wanted feature-wise. That, and I used a Ricoh back then with the K-mount system. So, when I did my research and found out about body-based IS, and backwards compatibilty with lenses, my mind was made up. I still had to order my K20D w/o ever getting a chance to play with it, but when it did arrive, it felt so much better than the Canons and Nikons I'd tried in the stores. It just felt right and intuitive.

That is my only problem with Pentax...the lack of shelf presence. If the consumer actually had a chance to do a hands-on comparison of Pentax vs the competition, I think Pentax would have a much larger share of the market than they do now. Think about the state of the coffee business in the US. Until Starbucks brought the average coffee drinker the taste of something better (or at least what they thought they remembered coffee tasting like when they went to Europe or elsewhere) the average consumer was content with Folgers and Maxwell House, preground, from a tin can that was many months old. (I don't like Starbucks BTW, too charred, so I roast my own).

QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
I chose a Pentax as my first dSLR because the K200d at the time was cheap and had awesome features. In body IS and WR for under $500. But now, Pentax is still awesome in my opinion, but I am only 20, and I have a long life ahead of me and wanted to buy into a system I could really grow into. Pentax, while has some excellent primes, I simply am not a prime person. I like my big zooms. I also like doing videos. Pentax doesn't really have a huge selection of big zooms. Also, I will probably be getting a 5D mark 3 when they arrive sometime next year. I will be able to have excellent reach with the 7D at 1.6x crop but also have the wideness of FF. Maybe one day I will pick up a APS-H also, and have the full lineup. I like Pentax, but I can't see myself growing into them.
You say Pentax is still awesome, but because you're young, you'll probably switch. No one's stopping you. Remember though, a long life is not guaranteed, so whatever system you choose to shoot with, be happy with it. Griping and complaining about cost or features will only rob you of joy. As an aside, I think too many people feel "if only I had the latest this or that, then I'll be happy and..." That's exactly what businesses want you to feel, so they can keep feeding people more and more stuff. It may be cliche, but money and stuff can't buy happiness.
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