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10-17-2010, 02:53 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Until we have a little more than 5 days history between these two bodies, how can anyone make the claim one is any better than the other at this point? Even if so, how exactly is the K-5 $300 "better" than the D7000?

Jason
Perceived quality... Take an Audi A3 and a Volkswagen Golf, same platform (same sensor ), sit in both, seats look the same, dashboard style is vaguely similar, now press some buttons or touch the top of the dash, the Golf feels nice but the A3 just a little bit better. The A3 also commands a premium over the Golf. That is where Hoya is taking Pentax. Its the little differences, the full magnesium body, the plastics used, the ergonomics, the extra stop of ISO, the all aluminium DA Limiteds which in turn all add up to a different market segment. Like it or loathe it, where Pentax's flagship dslr is concerned, it will command a premium and personally I approve of this approach. Thats where the extra or $ come from....

10-17-2010, 05:28 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by robbiec Quote
where Pentax's flagship dslr is concerned, it will command a premium
We should be lucky that we don't pay the logarithmic mean between K-r ($800) and 645D ($10k). As that would have been $2800
10-17-2010, 08:17 AM   #108
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My issue has nothing to do with the quality of the K-5 and I fully intend on getting one after the dust settles and the buyers high wears off from all the new owners. At that point we will know how it compares with other Pentax bodies as well as against the competition. My posts have been referring to the retail price Pentax has decided on for this. Tacking an extra 20% increase over the release of the last several flagship bodies seems a little rich, especially compared to what has also been released by other manufacturers for very similarly outfitted bodies.

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10-17-2010, 10:42 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
My issue has nothing to do with the quality of the K-5 and I fully intend on getting one after the dust settles and the buyers high wears off from all the new owners. At that point we will know how it compares with other Pentax bodies as well as against the competition. My posts have been referring to the retail price Pentax has decided on for this. Tacking an extra 20% increase over the release of the last several flagship bodies seems a little rich, especially compared to what has also been released by other manufacturers for very similarly outfitted bodies.

Jason
Dunno about the US, seems reasonable in the EU zone...
Then again, $1599 = 1146, which about right. Hoya's beancounters must have had their crystal ball redone with an smc coating

10-17-2010, 11:09 AM   #110
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regarding price in the USA:

it may be in line with other countries relative currency valuation but newer bodies from other makers are NOT similarly higher priced

also because of this factor, a used D700 FF is only $300 or $400 higher. A new D700 can be had for about $600 higher. Likewise a Sony A850 can be had for only about $250 or so more.

Now these would require new sets of lenses but still you are close to competing full frame

The K5 is certainly looking the part of a great camera but FF IQ is available for only a small additional amount at its current price

electronics should drop in price over time like Nikon seems to be doing...

we'll see how this all shakes out over the next year or two (D700x, D800, A9xx. etc)
10-17-2010, 11:10 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
My issue has nothing to do with the quality of the K-5 and I fully intend on getting one after the dust settles and the buyers high wears off from all the new owners. At that point we will know how it compares with other Pentax bodies as well as against the competition. My posts have been referring to the retail price Pentax has decided on for this. Tacking an extra 20% increase over the release of the last several flagship bodies seems a little rich, especially compared to what has also been released by other manufacturers for very similarly outfitted bodies.

Jason
So you don't think economy of scale enters into this?
Or do you even know what the term means?
10-17-2010, 11:29 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Tacking an extra 20% increase over the release of the last several flagship bodies seems a little rich, especially compared to what has also been released by other manufacturers for very similarly outfitted bodies.
Taking that thought to a logical conclusion, let's say Pentax offered the K-5 at $1299. There would still be a bunch of folks complaining about the price and saying they're going to wait until the price comes down. So, now they've lost that potential price point and earn even less. They have to start somewhere, and with the improvements they made over other cameras, feel that they have the right starting point.

I'm not saying I like high prices, and the K-5 may never be an option for me due to price, but for me to complain about them making a product beyond what I'm willing to spend seems pointless. It would be like me complaining about the cost to own my own airplane because I like to fly. I realize I won't ever own a plane, but does that make the manufacturer wrong for charging what they do?
10-17-2010, 01:04 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Interestingly, there's a lot of doubt concerning the K-5's worth from those who don't yet own one, but those who do at these early stages have been very impressed with the camera and can proudly say it's worth its current price tag.

The hands-on approach is usually best for these kinds of judgements.
Well that's a pretty outrageous concept, Ash. That's like saying people should listen to a piece of music before commenting on what it sounds like, or sample a wine before making claims about its flavor. Jeesh! Where do you get ideas like that, anyway?


Last edited by Parallax; 10-17-2010 at 05:02 PM.
10-17-2010, 04:46 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
We should be lucky that we don't pay the logarithmic mean between K-r ($800) and 645D ($10k). As that would have been $2800
Actually, $3600
10-17-2010, 04:51 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
We should be lucky that we don't pay the logarithmic mean between K-r ($800) and 645D ($10k). As that would have been $2800
QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
Actually, $3600
Not that it matters, but I think $2800 was correct ($2828 to be exact, but who's counting)
10-17-2010, 11:34 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by dgaies Quote
Not that it matters, but I think $2800 was correct ($2828 to be exact, but who's counting)
? How are you guys calculating it?

(10000 - 800) / (ln 10000 - ln 800) = $3642
10-17-2010, 11:43 PM   #117
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Geometric mean
SQRT (10,000 x 800) = $ 2828

Just a digression
10-17-2010, 11:45 PM   #118
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Ok, thought I was going crazy.

Logarithmic mean was mentioned, not geometric :-p
10-17-2010, 11:49 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Well that's a pretty outrageous concept, Ash. That's like saying people should listen to a piece of music before commenting on what it sounds like, or sample a wine before making claims about its flavor. Jeesh! Where do you get ideas like that, anyway?
Then again having accurate information about a product when it is introduced at your industry's biggest event that is only held, what? Every two years? but the staff in your booth or the staff in all your markets has either no info or conflicting information....accurate information...now that is truly an outrageous concept. Or is that also an unrealistic expectation?

Gotta admit it was freaking hilarious that even the president of Pentax USA as muzzled and had essentially nothing he was allowed to say.

Funny thing is, we still don't have 100% accurate details around the globe...or do we? Nobody at HoyaTax will confirm or deny the status of anything.
10-18-2010, 03:11 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
Ok, thought I was going crazy.

Logarithmic mean was mentioned, not geometric :-p
Log average The mean on a logarithmic scale

mean = Exp (1/n Sum (ln (x_i))

This turns out to be the same as the geometric mean indeed. But it is easier to argue why with 3 models, the middle one should occupy the middle position on a logarithmic price scale.
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