K-5 in "P" mode problem

jrforman · 10-19-2010, 12:02 PM

When I put the K-5 in P mode AND am in a bright setting, it won't let me lower the Aperture so the lens is wide open. If I cover the lens so it is dark, it will and then it will allow me to shoot at that Aperture. Same thing with the shutter speed. When I adjust the shutter speed downward it won't let me go beyond a certain point (the brighter the higher) until I cover the lens.

So my question is this,

1) Is it mine or is it everyones...

or

2) Was there a major change as to how the "P" mode works from the K20D?

Aperture and shutter priority do not have this issue.

Thanks.

jrf

Note; I tried different lens. Same Results. Pulled battery off. Same results. Took off Grip. Same Results.

adamfogerty · 10-19-2010, 12:19 PM

Is the Hyper-Program mode preventing you from choosing an aperture/shutter combo that would result in an over/under exposured image?

For example, trying to open up to an f-stop that would require a shutter speed faster than the K-5's maximum?

Just a thought.

I actually get the same behaviour on my K10D sometimes, where moving the dials in P mode will no longer change the values...a bit of random fiddling and they start working again. I've never done any controlled tests though to see how repeatable it is/what the cause might be.

Adam

dlacouture · 10-19-2010, 12:19 PM

Are you using Auto-iso, by any chances? Previous models were already somehow crippled when used in Auto-iso in P mode, with erratic behavior just like you described.

jrforman · 10-19-2010, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by adamfogerty

Is the Hyper-Program mode preventing you from choosing an aperture/shutter combo that would result in an over/under exposured image?

For example, trying to open up to an f-stop that would require a shutter speed faster than the K-5's maximum?

It doesn't over expose/under. Its like it has a particular shutter speed in mind and then doesn't allow the aperture (when the aperture is what you are trying to set) go beyond that particular combination.

BUT I just figured out this only happens when the ISO is on the auto setting. It doesn't do it when a specific ISO is selected which has me thinking this is a logic bug (or as I use to say, when I designed software, a feature is a bug I find first). Can someone with a K-5 try to replicate the issue? "P" mode, auto iso, bright day, and then try to set the lens to wide open aperture. Thanks.

jrforman · 10-19-2010, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by dlacouture

Are you using Auto-iso, by any chances? Previous models were already somehow crippled when used in Auto-iso in P mode, with erratic behavior just like you described.

Yep. Just sort of figured this out - prior message - while you were posting. So its a known issue? Thanks.

Parallax · 10-19-2010, 12:39 PM

Does it do this at all program line settings, or only with the program line set to MTF?

imtheguy · 10-19-2010, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by jrforman

Yep. Just sort of figured this out - prior message - while you were posting. So its a known issue? Thanks.

Just tried it for you. In Program mode, default in menu is "Normal", using a FA50/1.7 lens in daylight, using either wheel to change settings, I could get the aperture open only until sutter hit 1/8000, which is exactly what I would expect. When I pointed the lens towards shade, I could open the aperture to f1.7 w/o maxing the shutter.

If you are not maxing the shutter then have you changed any settings for Program from defaults?

jrforman · 10-19-2010, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

Does it do this at all program line settings, or only with the program line set to MTF?

Just checked. All program lines.

jrforman · 10-19-2010, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by imtheguy

Just tried it for you. In Program mode, default in menu is "Normal", using a FA50/1.7 lens in daylight, using either wheel to change settings, I could get the aperture open only until sutter hit 1/8000, which is exactly what I would expect. When I pointed the lens towards shade, I could open the aperture to f1.7 w/o maxing the shutter.

If you are not maxing the shutter then have you changed any settings for Program from defaults?

Was your ISO in Auto mode? Mine works like yours only if in fixed ISO.

imtheguy · 10-19-2010, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by jrforman

Was your ISO in Auto mode? Mine works like yours only if in fixed ISO.

Yes, Auto 200-12800 according to the Info screen

robjmitchell · 10-19-2010, 01:50 PM

Try double clicking the info button to make sure the Min Auto ISO setting is on 80/100. The camera wont allow you to over expose an image and will limit you to minimum shutter speed or min aperture. If you want to overexpose your photo then you can put it in manual or adjust exposure compensation. If you want wide open aperture in bright light then you may actually need a filter.
Cheers

robjmitchell · 10-19-2010, 01:52 PM

Also uncheck highlight and shadow correction as that will limit the min ISO to 200 (at least in the k-7)

deadwolfbones · 10-19-2010, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by imtheguy

Just tried it for you. In Program mode, default in menu is "Normal", using a FA50/1.7 lens in daylight, using either wheel to change settings, I could get the aperture open only until sutter hit 1/8000, which is exactly what I would expect. When I pointed the lens towards shade, I could open the aperture to f1.7 w/o maxing the shutter.

If you are not maxing the shutter then have you changed any settings for Program from defaults?

Yeah, just tried it as well with my K-5 and FA43, also in Auto-ISO.

If I'm pointed at a bright light source and my aperture is already set to a relatively narrow setting (say f/8), I can't widen it beyond what gets the shutter speed to 1/8000th.

However, if I aim at a dark area and change the aperture to f/1.9 I can then shoot at f/1.9 no matter how bright my subject is (though of course the 1/8000 is flashing like crazy in the viewfinder and the shots are waaaay overexposed).

jrforman · 10-19-2010, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by robjmitchell

Try double clicking the info button to make sure the Min Auto ISO setting is on 80/100. The camera wont allow you to over expose an image and will limit you to minimum shutter speed or min aperture. If you want to overexpose your photo then you can put it in manual or adjust exposure compensation. If you want wide open aperture in bright light then you may actually need a filter.
Cheers

Yep. Minimum at 100.

Originally posted by robjmitchell

Also uncheck highlight and shadow correction as that will limit the min ISO to 200 (at least in the k-7)

Unchecked.

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

Yeah, just tried it as well with my K-5 and FA43, also in Auto-ISO.

If I'm pointed at a bright light source and my aperture is already set to a relatively narrow setting (say f/8), I can't widen it beyond what gets the shutter speed to 1/8000th.

When I start to adjust aperture the shutter speed goes to 100 and doesn't move regardless to amount of light. Likewise when I try to adjust the shutter it will start at about 2500 and then freeze the aperture to 4.0. The aperture won't flex with different amounts of light. If I take it off auto iso it works fine. Works fine in modes different than P (such as aperture priority or shutter priority) with auto or fixed iso.

Since you aren't experiencing it, this might be a "me" issue.

What is weird, it seemed to start (but I am not a 100% sure) when I attached a flash yesterday. (there isn't a flash on now).

creampuff · 10-19-2010, 02:18 PM

Could it be the Auto EV Compensation in the Custom Menu...
But then it could be how the algorithm was written.

10-19-2010, 12:02 PM	#1
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202	K-5 in "P" mode problem When I put the K-5 in P mode AND am in a bright setting, it won't let me lower the Aperture so the lens is wide open. If I cover the lens so it is dark, it will and then it will allow me to shoot at that Aperture. Same thing with the shutter speed. When I adjust the shutter speed downward it won't let me go beyond a certain point (the brighter the higher) until I cover the lens. So my question is this, 1) Is it mine or is it everyones... or 2) Was there a major change as to how the "P" mode works from the K20D? Aperture and shutter priority do not have this issue. Thanks. jrf Note; I tried different lens. Same Results. Pulled battery off. Same results. Took off Grip. Same Results.

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10-19-2010, 12:19 PM	#2
adamfogerty Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 47	Is the Hyper-Program mode preventing you from choosing an aperture/shutter combo that would result in an over/under exposured image? For example, trying to open up to an f-stop that would require a shutter speed faster than the K-5's maximum? Just a thought. I actually get the same behaviour on my K10D sometimes, where moving the dials in P mode will no longer change the values...a bit of random fiddling and they start working again. I've never done any controlled tests though to see how repeatable it is/what the cause might be. Adam

10-19-2010, 12:19 PM	#3
dlacouture Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Var, South of France Photos: Albums Posts: 1,074	Are you using Auto-iso, by any chances? Previous models were already somehow crippled when used in Auto-iso in P mode, with erratic behavior just like you described.

10-19-2010, 12:29 PM	#4
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202 Original Poster	Originally posted by adamfogerty Is the Hyper-Program mode preventing you from choosing an aperture/shutter combo that would result in an over/under exposured image? For example, trying to open up to an f-stop that would require a shutter speed faster than the K-5's maximum? It doesn't over expose/under. Its like it has a particular shutter speed in mind and then doesn't allow the aperture (when the aperture is what you are trying to set) go beyond that particular combination. BUT I just figured out this only happens when the ISO is on the auto setting. It doesn't do it when a specific ISO is selected which has me thinking this is a logic bug (or as I use to say, when I designed software, a feature is a bug I find first). Can someone with a K-5 try to replicate the issue? "P" mode, auto iso, bright day, and then try to set the lens to wide open aperture. Thanks.

10-19-2010, 12:30 PM	#5
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202 Original Poster	Originally posted by dlacouture Are you using Auto-iso, by any chances? Previous models were already somehow crippled when used in Auto-iso in P mode, with erratic behavior just like you described. Yep. Just sort of figured this out - prior message - while you were posting. So its a known issue? Thanks.

10-19-2010, 12:39 PM	#6
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Does it do this at all program line settings, or only with the program line set to MTF?

10-19-2010, 01:41 PM	#7
imtheguy Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,950	Originally posted by jrforman Yep. Just sort of figured this out - prior message - while you were posting. So its a known issue? Thanks. Just tried it for you. In Program mode, default in menu is "Normal", using a FA50/1.7 lens in daylight, using either wheel to change settings, I could get the aperture open only until sutter hit 1/8000, which is exactly what I would expect. When I pointed the lens towards shade, I could open the aperture to f1.7 w/o maxing the shutter. If you are not maxing the shutter then have you changed any settings for Program from defaults?

10-19-2010, 01:42 PM	#8
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202 Original Poster	Originally posted by Parallax Does it do this at all program line settings, or only with the program line set to MTF? Just checked. All program lines.

10-19-2010, 01:45 PM	#9
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202 Original Poster	Originally posted by imtheguy Just tried it for you. In Program mode, default in menu is "Normal", using a FA50/1.7 lens in daylight, using either wheel to change settings, I could get the aperture open only until sutter hit 1/8000, which is exactly what I would expect. When I pointed the lens towards shade, I could open the aperture to f1.7 w/o maxing the shutter. If you are not maxing the shutter then have you changed any settings for Program from defaults? Was your ISO in Auto mode? Mine works like yours only if in fixed ISO.

10-19-2010, 01:50 PM	#10
imtheguy Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,950	Originally posted by jrforman Was your ISO in Auto mode? Mine works like yours only if in fixed ISO. Yes, Auto 200-12800 according to the Info screen

10-19-2010, 01:50 PM	#11
robjmitchell Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne Aus Posts: 1,776	Try double clicking the info button to make sure the Min Auto ISO setting is on 80/100. The camera wont allow you to over expose an image and will limit you to minimum shutter speed or min aperture. If you want to overexpose your photo then you can put it in manual or adjust exposure compensation. If you want wide open aperture in bright light then you may actually need a filter. Cheers

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10-19-2010, 01:52 PM	#12
robjmitchell Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne Aus Posts: 1,776	Also uncheck highlight and shadow correction as that will limit the min ISO to 200 (at least in the k-7)

10-19-2010, 01:54 PM	#13
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	Originally posted by imtheguy Just tried it for you. In Program mode, default in menu is "Normal", using a FA50/1.7 lens in daylight, using either wheel to change settings, I could get the aperture open only until sutter hit 1/8000, which is exactly what I would expect. When I pointed the lens towards shade, I could open the aperture to f1.7 w/o maxing the shutter. If you are not maxing the shutter then have you changed any settings for Program from defaults? Yeah, just tried it as well with my K-5 and FA43, also in Auto-ISO. If I'm pointed at a bright light source and my aperture is already set to a relatively narrow setting (say f/8), I can't widen it beyond what gets the shutter speed to 1/8000th. However, if I aim at a dark area and change the aperture to f/1.9 I can then shoot at f/1.9 no matter how bright my subject is (though of course the 1/8000 is flashing like crazy in the viewfinder and the shots are waaaay overexposed).

10-19-2010, 02:15 PM	#14
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202 Original Poster	Originally posted by robjmitchell Try double clicking the info button to make sure the Min Auto ISO setting is on 80/100. The camera wont allow you to over expose an image and will limit you to minimum shutter speed or min aperture. If you want to overexpose your photo then you can put it in manual or adjust exposure compensation. If you want wide open aperture in bright light then you may actually need a filter. Cheers Yep. Minimum at 100. Originally posted by robjmitchell Also uncheck highlight and shadow correction as that will limit the min ISO to 200 (at least in the k-7) Unchecked. Originally posted by deadwolfbones Yeah, just tried it as well with my K-5 and FA43, also in Auto-ISO. If I'm pointed at a bright light source and my aperture is already set to a relatively narrow setting (say f/8), I can't widen it beyond what gets the shutter speed to 1/8000th. When I start to adjust aperture the shutter speed goes to 100 and doesn't move regardless to amount of light. Likewise when I try to adjust the shutter it will start at about 2500 and then freeze the aperture to 4.0. The aperture won't flex with different amounts of light. If I take it off auto iso it works fine. Works fine in modes different than P (such as aperture priority or shutter priority) with auto or fixed iso. Since you aren't experiencing it, this might be a "me" issue. What is weird, it seemed to start (but I am not a 100% sure) when I attached a flash yesterday. (there isn't a flash on now).

10-19-2010, 02:18 PM	#15
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Could it be the Auto EV Compensation in the Custom Menu... But then it could be how the algorithm was written.