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11-06-2010, 12:58 PM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by Big G Quote
I think that's insulting to Pentax; I've never felt that they're behind the "big boys". Pentax simply cater for a smaller and more niche market segment than Canikon do. I could take a landscape photo with my 7D, or my K20D (or soon to be K-5...) and it will look awesome regardless of which body I used because it's me that took the photo. Where Pentax have considered to be "behind" (high ISO, AF performance) may be completely irrelevant to most Pentax shooters.

Personally, I think all this high ISO measurbation is meaningless boredom because you can bet your testicles to a barn dance that very few people on these forums will ever shoot that high. Yes, it's nice to know you can use it, but I can't remember the last time I used anything higher than about ISO 2000 other than on occasion where I wanted to test it.

As a casual observation of all internet forums, my god people can talk a good game. Get out and take photos; let your portfolio do the talking, not the sensor.

Big G... I understand your point but I am not insulting Pentax. Hey, I'm a Pentaxian too. But there's no getting around the fact that Pentax had a false start at the beginning of the digital era and has been playing catch-up to the Big Two - particularly in the areas of autofocus speed and tracking ability.

Like you, my own photographic needs and appreciation of the great value Pentax offered led me to buy into the system and I have never regretted it. I am not apologizing for Pentax.

But the company's cameras - apart from its fabulous lenses - have been running a generation behind CaNikon in terms of absolute performance. Just because many of us - and that probably includes you and me - didn't require that cutting edge performance didn't make it any less so. That is, of course, until the advent of the K-x, with its class-leading high ISO performance and off-the-scale value. And it's getting better with every new camera Pentax has brought out since.

it's a time for celebration.

11-06-2010, 01:11 PM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
well, with all due respect, other than FOV/DOF difference, the K-5 reached in some category the FF/MF category that was never seemed possible, not to mention the K-5 even upstaged some of the much expensive higher-end cameras. for an APS-C sensor camera, that is a great achievement by all means. I could remember some old discussions (last year or two) talked about it is the end of the road for th APS-C size sensor in terms of MP, ISO. now who would have taught that it could reach this level.

of course, there will be better FF in the future, so does APS-C as a cheaper alternative to them. from what it appears, it comes down to economics these days and preference.
Still, the goal posts are constantly being moved. What seems stellar one day is just ordinary the next and quite unacceptable the day after that. Rising expectations are part of human nature, especially in a consumerist society. In a few short years, people will look back upon the K-5 with fond memories as a camera that was great in its day but not up to current standards. You can bet on it. It's not like the days of film photography, when, if you wanted better images, you used better lenses and better film. An old camera could perform just as well as a new one purely in terms of IQ.

I look upon the K-5 as a two generation camera, i.e. it should keep me satisfied until the second succeeding camera is released. By then, the latest technology will probably be too much for me to resist. Hell, maybe the first successor will tempt me as well. I am at an age where I don't like to defer things too far into the future.

Rob
11-06-2010, 02:39 PM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
D7000 does have ISO 80. Just use ISO 100 and comp it positive and then lower the exposure afterwards. Just don't clip anything.
This way you can get ISO 50, or ISO 15 as well. The downside is that the lower you get, the lower the DR becomes.

QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
Basically same thing the K-5 or any other camera does to get lower ISO ranges below their base ISO.
No, that's wrong. The K-5 has increased DR range at ISO 80. The sensor truly has the full-well capacity to run a native ISO 80. That's completely different to a software emulation (I believe ISO 50 on many older Canikons was just a DR-reducing software trick).

I love the fact that the K-5 has increased colour sensitivity at this low ISO range. Should be great for portraits.


QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
of course, there will be better FF in the future, so does APS-C as a cheaper alternative to them.
What is cheaper? A FF camera with a 55/1.4 lens or an APS-C camera with an equivalent 35/0.9 lens?

This might be an extreme example but there will be a day when an FF camera with a 450/4 lens will be cheaper than an APS-C camera with an equivalent 300/2.8 lens.

Of course some APS-C may not need the speed for their lenses, but APS-C lenses also have higher requirements regarding sharpness, APS-C AF has higher precision requirements, etc. So it should be only a matter of time till FF becomes cheaper.

APS-C lenses might survive if there are sufficiently many who are prepared to pay more for compactness. Maybe they'll have to be used on crop-mode on an FF camera because APS-C cameras cannot be more compact than FF cameras and maintaining APS-C sensors after FF sensors have become commonplace doesn't seem like an economical proposition.
11-06-2010, 02:56 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
So it should be only a matter of time till FF becomes cheaper.
I don't see that happening. The FF sensor is bigger, and a bigger silicon is more expensive than one with a smaller area (higher yields per wafer/dice).

Then there's the matter of marketing volume & economies of scale. What's the current percentage of FF to all APS-C users? 2%-5%?

The major market will never be the enthusiast - it will be mums and dads wanting better shots. So it will be entry-level DSLRs (most of which will probably never be upgraded by their owners) and EVILs due to their more compact size: after coming from a P&S who wants to lug around a DSLR, let alone a FF with a grip? I don't know about you, but the size & weight of a D3 up against a K-5 intimidates me.

Dan.

11-06-2010, 03:07 PM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
how many of you are happy that pentax went with sony route rather than samsung with their bellwether camera.

Do you really think samsung sensor would have close to score of 80??
typo: would have crossed





QuoteOriginally posted by bobmaxja Quote
Completly irrelevant for this tread
Why it would be irrelevant. Is DxoMark not testing sensor?? Do sony samsung not make sensors.

Which part you find irrelevant???


I can tell you there are many people who are happy that pentax chose sony sensor in this cam then samsung.
11-06-2010, 03:14 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
Why it would be irrelevant. Is DxoMark not testing sensor?? Do sony samsung not make sensors.

Which part you find irrelevant???


I can tell you there are many people who are happy that pentax chose sony sensor in this cam then samsung.
Well, I'm glad that there now a Sony sensor inside. I wonder if the inbuilt image stacking in the SLT-A55 is any good? I think more cameras will have stuff like this in the future. (What about in-camera processing to decrease DOF so you can get background isolation without using a big, heavy, expensive large aperture lens? I'm thinking 70-200/F2.8 lenses here. The other reason for using large apertures is sensitivity. With high ISO becoming more usable and hopefully AF sensors becoming more sensitive too, large aperture lens will become less necessary.) It's built-in GPS would be nice too if it didn't increase the price too much. But I certainly don't want to change mounts.

Dan

Last edited by dosdan; 11-06-2010 at 03:29 PM.
11-06-2010, 03:21 PM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by dosdan Quote
Well, I'm glad that there now a Sony sensor inside. I wonder if the inbuilt image stacking in the SLT-A55 is any good? I think more cameras will have stuff like this in the future. (What about in-camera processing to decrease DOF so you can get background isolation without using a big, heavy expensive large aperture lens?) It's built-in GPS would be nice too if it didn't increase the price too much. But I certainly don't want to change mounts.

Dan
i think the image stacking in sony is really good. Have seen some very good work. But i also think that all this will trickle into other brands too sooner or later. Anything that is good or could be marketed as 'feature' usually comes up. Whether it is useful or not it is at least a marketing feature. So very likely that other will also provide it in some form.


Edited to add:

I threw that sony / samsung sensor question in this thread because few months ago there was a discussion here in this forum. And someone said that next sensor in k7 successor would be much improved samsung. His point was that samsung would improve sensor design very much that it would beat k-x sensor. I told him that time that he assumes meanwhile sony will be sleeping and he is assuming that sony would not improve sensor a bit. But since sony would also improve sensor the gap would be widen between next sony and samsung sensor. Dxomark score shows what i meant that time.

Last edited by zxaar; 11-06-2010 at 03:30 PM.
11-06-2010, 03:33 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
i think the image stacking in sony is really good.
Yes, high frame rates & in-camera image processors powerful enough to align multiple hand-held shots open up interesting possibilities.

Dan.

11-06-2010, 03:56 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by dosdan Quote
I don't see that happening. The FF sensor is bigger, and a bigger silicon is more expensive than one with a smaller area (higher yields per wafer/dice).
You are right about the sensor cost but note that my argument was based on lens prices. Quality FF lenses are cheaper than quality APS-C lenses. My point (borrowed from falconeye) is that the cost advantages regarding FF systems will make FF sensor production so much cheaper that mass production effects will make it more economical to use an FF sensor in a camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by dosdan Quote
What's the current percentage of FF to all APS-C users? 2%-5%?
I believe currently FF cameras are used by manufactures to reap high margins. That's why only a few enter that market. I was talking about the future. If Canikon/Sony decide to offer attractively priced FF cameras in the next round, I think we'll see the start of that process.

QuoteOriginally posted by dosdan Quote
I don't know about you, but the size & weight of a D3 up against a K-5 intimidates me.
I'm sure you can fit an FF sensor in a camera the size of the K-5. It uses an FF-mount. Maybe higher electronics integration will be required, maybe the camera will grow some millimetres, but it need not have the size of a D3.

P.S.: I'm very, very glad that Pentax went for a SONY sensor. I always wished for that to happen. Hopefully the DxOMark results will receive a lot of publicity including with sales attendants. I also hope the K-5 can stay on top for a while. It would help to make Pentax known beyond the enthusiasts that already had been convinced about the other advantages products of this brand have.

Last edited by Class A; 11-06-2010 at 04:01 PM.
11-06-2010, 05:18 PM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
You are right about the sensor cost but note that my argument was based on lens prices. Quality FF lenses are cheaper than quality APS-C lenses. My point (borrowed from falconeye) is that the cost advantages regarding FF systems will make FF sensor production so much cheaper that mass production effects will make it more economical to use an FF sensor in a camera.


I believe currently FF cameras are used by manufactures to reap high margins. That's why only a few enter that market. I was talking about the future. If Canikon/Sony decide to offer attractively priced FF cameras in the next round, I think we'll see the start of that process.


I'm sure you can fit an FF sensor in a camera the size of the K-5. It uses an FF-mount. Maybe higher electronics integration will be required, maybe the camera will grow some millimetres, but it need not have the size of a D3.

P.S.: I'm very, very glad that Pentax went for a SONY sensor. I always wished for that to happen. Hopefully the DxOMark results will receive a lot of publicity including with sales attendants. I also hope the K-5 can stay on top for a while. It would help to make Pentax known beyond the enthusiasts that already had been convinced about the other advantages products of this brand have.
If Pentax ever comes out with a full frame camera, it will have sensor shift technology in it. This will mean a body bigger than the K5 for certain, probably closer to 7D size I would guess. Pentax doesn't have any stabilized lenses and their full frame camera would look pretty weak compared to other companies sizeable herds of stabilized glass.

I think I agree with you about the comparitive cost of glass from APS-C to full frame, but you will never convince the public. For years, camera companies have sold APS-C as a way of "making your lenses longer," while still being just as fast as ever. 50mm lenses are sold as short telephotos. Sure, many photographers understand the difference, but for full frame to drop in price, the "average Joe" buying his first camera has to understand equivalency and decide that he is OK with an f4 lens on his full frame camera as compared to an f2.8 lens on APS-C. Good luck on that!
11-06-2010, 05:39 PM   #266
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I said narrow the gap between the lower rung FFs and the top APS-Cs; not overtake the FFs! This is mind boggling!
11-06-2010, 06:20 PM   #267
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Pentax has to take complete blame for releasing the K-r with a slightly enhanced version of the same sensor has the K-x. They should have gone with at least the 14 MP sensor of that family - the one that is used in the A560.

Pentax could have placed 2 models in the top 3 and gained a lot greater exposure which I believe would have translated into much higher sales.

But kudos on the K-5, nevertheless.
11-06-2010, 06:39 PM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by jhaji Quote
Pentax has to take complete blame for releasing the K-r with a slightly enhanced version of the same sensor has the K-x. They should have gone with at least the 14 MP sensor of that family - the one that is used in the A560.

Pentax could have placed 2 models in the top 3 and gained a lot greater exposure which I believe would have translated into much higher sales.

But kudos on the K-5, nevertheless.
I believe there were certain issues concerning the k-x that people complained about and Pentax was only there to address it as soon as possible. if I'm not mistaken, the k-x would eventually be discontinued anytime soon and would entirely be replaced by the k-r. same might go with the K-7 by the K-5 but I think it is there to stay as a cheaper flagship alternative to the K-5. the difference in pricing between the K-7 and K-5 is huge to be considered by the consumer ($800) as opposed to the k-x and the k-r which is roughly $200-$300, or the K-7 which is around $300 as well. I think the k-x has become like the K200D which was also short-lived.
11-06-2010, 07:01 PM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by Big G Quote
Woah, time to replace my K20D.
+1

Any takers?
11-06-2010, 07:45 PM   #270
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FF would be a waste for Pentax, given current APS-C performance, there is not much market share or money to gain in FF.

To compete Pentax needs two things, 28, f0.95 lens for low light, and maybe another two lenses of this kind, one in wide range and another at 135 mm f1.8, the rest is covered with what we already have. Those lenses would be Nikon style cost though, but surely better to produce them than Nikon cost FF camera with whole line of new lenses to support it. If Pentax wants differentiation at a cost, three super fast amigos like that would definitely put the stamp on the map.

In addition to really fast APS-C lenses Pentax may need pro level AF, and than work on system development/ie the whole support/rent/presence in the stores front, and not a FF body. They have 645D to cover the "aspirational" part of the market.

The body Pentax needs is a mirorless APS-C one, and hopefully we will see one eventually, not that I will intend to buy it, but this is where the money will be. Small and great IQ is the future, at least for volume sales.

If anything K-5 is proving that for IQ you do not need FF, as what K-5 provides is plenty already... get a faster lens if you need to push the envelope, not to mention that most FF shooters do not shoot wide open all the time and lose their "speed" advnatage, the main reason FF is popular with pro's is due to highest spec bodies being availabe in this format. Ie shooting speed and camera body specs... , while being significantly better in IQ until K-5 pushed it in this direction, with similar sensor to K-5 for next D400, with a pro body, there will be less reasons than ever to move up to FF even in Nikon land, let alone for Pentax to go into that niche (and a niche it is, I doubt it is 10% of total DSLR sales, even if Pentax moved there it would probably more useful for marketing than anything else as pros would not move in droves to Petnax as they did to Nikon as Nikon already had the ecosystem setup when D3 was released... Pentax has none, in most of the world at least).
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