K5 highlight headroom?

kenyee · 11-06-2010, 07:51 PM

Curious if any of you K-5 owners have explored the other end?

Some of the Nikon D7000 folks seem to have found out that there's less headroom in the highlights, so it's easier to blow them out than the previous sensors:

NikonCafe.com

Wheatfield · 11-06-2010, 07:59 PM

I'm not sure what the point of the comparison is. They are different cameras from different camera makers.

kittykat46 · 11-06-2010, 08:24 PM

Pentax exposure logic is more conservative than many other brands.

If anything, the common complaint is Underexposure from those used to "bright" pictures coming from other brands. I usually found the exposure for a Grey wall slightly to the left of the histogram, about 1/3 EV.

rawr · 11-06-2010, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by kenyee

Curious if any of you K-5 owners have explored the other end?

NikonCafe.com

I hate it when people link to private forums.
I'm not going to join up just to see one post.

kenyee · 11-06-2010, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by kittykat46

If anything, the common complaint is Underexposure from those used to "bright" pictures coming from other brands. I usually found the exposure for a Grey wall slightly to the left of the histogram, about 1/3 EV.

I thought that was true up to the K20D? The K7 exposes more like other brands (expose to the right)....

dlacouture · 11-06-2010, 10:21 PM

Yes, I had the whole Pentax top line (K10, k20, K7 - and KX) before the K5, and K7/K5 really expose on the right, so much that there is nearly no highlight headroom left.

In bright sunlight, I usually dial in a -1Ev comp, so as not to blow sun-bathed highlights.

Eruditass · 11-06-2010, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by kenyee

Curious if any of you K-5 owners have explored the other end?

Some of the Nikon D7000 folks seem to have found out that there's less headroom in the highlights, so it's easier to blow them out than the previous sensors:

NikonCafe.com

So basically they are saying the D7000 meters hotter than previous cameras.

Not a big deal if you're familiar with your camera. Shadow headroom and highlight headroom all fall under the more important "dynamic range" figure. You can exchange one for the other with EV comp.

kenyee · 11-07-2010, 06:21 AM

I was more worried it was a weakness of the sensor.
Someone on DPR thinks it's the same as the K-7, but PF is back, so that implies they went w/ a weaker K10D style AA filter:
K5 v K7 Low ISO Shadow Noise Sample: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

If any of you guys can find some subjects w/ lots of lines, look for moire patterns (another sign of a weaker AA filter)...

dlacouture · 11-07-2010, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by kenyee

I was more worried it was a weakness of the sensor.
Someone on DPR thinks it's the same as the K-7, but PF is back, so that implies they went w/ a weaker K10D style AA filter:
K5 v K7 Low ISO Shadow Noise Sample: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

By PF, are you meaning Purple Fringing?
This is really a DSLR urban legend. Well-spilling sensors are things of a long-gone past, and any purple fringing is only caused by the lens (and accordingly to some sources, possibly the sensor's microlens array, but I don't think so).
One easy test to convince yourself is to use an higher ISO : if the PF stays, then it has nothing to do with electrical spill from one photosite to the surrounding ones, as you don' fill them anymore.

You can also try to defocus the lens a little bit, you'll then see the PF go away!

Or maybe you simply implied that the weaker AA filter had a detrimental effect on optical PF, in which case I'm with you!

kenyee · 11-07-2010, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by dlacouture

Or maybe you simply implied that the weaker AA filter had a detrimental effect on optical PF, in which case I'm with you!

This.

I used to have a K10D and like many Tamron 70-300 owners had lots of PF (but it was sharp until 280mm). Switched to a K20D and most of the PF was gone because of the stronger AA filter but when it did show up, it glowed

Wasn't nearly as sharp w/ the K20D though.
At any rate, from that review, PF has come back w/ the K5, so I'm guessing a weaker AA filter...

AngryCorgi · 11-07-2010, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Eruditass

So basically they are saying the D7000 meters hotter than previous cameras.

Not a big deal if you're familiar with your camera. Shadow headroom and highlight headroom all fall under the more important "dynamic range" figure. You can exchange one for the other with EV comp.

The D7000 isn't the first...the D90 also metered too close to clipping highlights as well. The D90 had about 1/2-2/3EV headroom on most matrix-metered shots (but even then didn't hold ALL the color channels from clipping the entire way). Compared to as much as 1-1/2EV in the headroom of D700 shots. The D7000 follows that D90 tradition and so I've put a universal matrix compensation (one of the custom overrides/functions on the camera) of -0.7EV into my D7000 now. That should consistently give ˜1EV+ of headroom to keep highlights from clipping too early and to offer some room to build a shoulder up to show a smooth progression to highlights. I prefer the look of film, so when shooting I try to leave myself room to emulate it in post. The D700 was a natural at this. The D7000 needs some user modification to leave room for later dabbling.

11-06-2010, 07:51 PM	#1
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	K5 highlight headroom? Curious if any of you K-5 owners have explored the other end? Some of the Nikon D7000 folks seem to have found out that there's less headroom in the highlights, so it's easier to blow them out than the previous sensors: NikonCafe.com

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11-06-2010, 07:59 PM	#2
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,976	I'm not sure what the point of the comparison is. They are different cameras from different camera makers.

11-06-2010, 08:24 PM	#3
kittykat46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 923	Pentax exposure logic is more conservative than many other brands. If anything, the common complaint is Underexposure from those used to "bright" pictures coming from other brands. I usually found the exposure for a Grey wall slightly to the left of the histogram, about 1/3 EV.

11-06-2010, 08:41 PM	#4
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by kenyee Curious if any of you K-5 owners have explored the other end? NikonCafe.com I hate it when people link to private forums. I'm not going to join up just to see one post.

11-06-2010, 08:44 PM	#5
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026 Original Poster	Originally posted by kittykat46 If anything, the common complaint is Underexposure from those used to "bright" pictures coming from other brands. I usually found the exposure for a Grey wall slightly to the left of the histogram, about 1/3 EV. I thought that was true up to the K20D? The K7 exposes more like other brands (expose to the right)....

11-06-2010, 10:21 PM	#6
dlacouture Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Var, South of France Photos: Albums Posts: 1,074	Yes, I had the whole Pentax top line (K10, k20, K7 - and KX) before the K5, and K7/K5 really expose on the right, so much that there is nearly no highlight headroom left. In bright sunlight, I usually dial in a -1Ev comp, so as not to blow sun-bathed highlights.

11-06-2010, 11:39 PM	#7
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by kenyee Curious if any of you K-5 owners have explored the other end? Some of the Nikon D7000 folks seem to have found out that there's less headroom in the highlights, so it's easier to blow them out than the previous sensors: NikonCafe.com So basically they are saying the D7000 meters hotter than previous cameras. Not a big deal if you're familiar with your camera. Shadow headroom and highlight headroom all fall under the more important "dynamic range" figure. You can exchange one for the other with EV comp.

11-07-2010, 06:21 AM	#8
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026 Original Poster	I was more worried it was a weakness of the sensor. Someone on DPR thinks it's the same as the K-7, but PF is back, so that implies they went w/ a weaker K10D style AA filter: K5 v K7 Low ISO Shadow Noise Sample: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review If any of you guys can find some subjects w/ lots of lines, look for moire patterns (another sign of a weaker AA filter)...

11-07-2010, 10:30 AM	#9
dlacouture Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Var, South of France Photos: Albums Posts: 1,074	Originally posted by kenyee I was more worried it was a weakness of the sensor. Someone on DPR thinks it's the same as the K-7, but PF is back, so that implies they went w/ a weaker K10D style AA filter: K5 v K7 Low ISO Shadow Noise Sample: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review By PF, are you meaning Purple Fringing? This is really a DSLR urban legend. Well-spilling sensors are things of a long-gone past, and any purple fringing is only caused by the lens (and accordingly to some sources, possibly the sensor's microlens array, but I don't think so). One easy test to convince yourself is to use an higher ISO : if the PF stays, then it has nothing to do with electrical spill from one photosite to the surrounding ones, as you don' fill them anymore. You can also try to defocus the lens a little bit, you'll then see the PF go away! Or maybe you simply implied that the weaker AA filter had a detrimental effect on optical PF, in which case I'm with you!

11-07-2010, 01:17 PM	#10
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026 Original Poster	Originally posted by dlacouture Or maybe you simply implied that the weaker AA filter had a detrimental effect on optical PF, in which case I'm with you! This. I used to have a K10D and like many Tamron 70-300 owners had lots of PF (but it was sharp until 280mm). Switched to a K20D and most of the PF was gone because of the stronger AA filter but when it did show up, it glowed Wasn't nearly as sharp w/ the K20D though. At any rate, from that review, PF has come back w/ the K5, so I'm guessing a weaker AA filter...

11-07-2010, 01:54 PM	#11
AngryCorgi Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Northern VA Posts: 73	Originally posted by Eruditass So basically they are saying the D7000 meters hotter than previous cameras. Not a big deal if you're familiar with your camera. Shadow headroom and highlight headroom all fall under the more important "dynamic range" figure. You can exchange one for the other with EV comp. The D7000 isn't the first...the D90 also metered too close to clipping highlights as well. The D90 had about 1/2-2/3EV headroom on most matrix-metered shots (but even then didn't hold ALL the color channels from clipping the entire way). Compared to as much as 1-1/2EV in the headroom of D700 shots. The D7000 follows that D90 tradition and so I've put a universal matrix compensation (one of the custom overrides/functions on the camera) of -0.7EV into my D7000 now. That should consistently give ˜1EV+ of headroom to keep highlights from clipping too early and to offer some room to build a shoulder up to show a smooth progression to highlights. I prefer the look of film, so when shooting I try to leave myself room to emulate it in post. The D700 was a natural at this. The D7000 needs some user modification to leave room for later dabbling.

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