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11-18-2010, 10:27 PM   #1
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K5 Video: still not full HD?

I read a review (I forget where) that stated that the K5 HD video still left something to be desired.

The criticism was that:

1) the 1080P video only offers 25 fps - and not 24 and 30. Why is this important?

2) that 'full HD' should be 60fps - to be progressive and not interlaced. Why is this important?

Thanks and apologies if this has been covered before.

11-19-2010, 01:05 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spock Quote
The criticism was that:

1) the 1080P video only offers 25 fps - and not 24 and 30. Why is this important?
I'd like the 24p option because that's more of a film standard framerate; I could import without having to conform to 24p. For me, 30p isn't so much important, as my workflow is 24p. 30p would be more compatible with older NTSC TVs.

QuoteQuote:
2) that 'full HD' should be 60fps - to be progressive and not interlaced. Why is this important?
Now this I call BS. If that were the case, then all those movies you're watching on blu-ray are not "full HD"; the current spec has a maximum of 1080p24, that's 24 fps. The K-5 can shoot 1080p25 or 1080p at 25 fps. Most professional moviemakers shoot at 24fps; are they not shooting "full HD" then?

Because of the frame rate, the K-5 shoudn't be considered full-HD? To put it another way, the Canon 60D shoots 60p, although at the reduced 720p resolution. Based on this logic, would that be considered "full HD?" If you say yes, you're crazy. One has to consider not only the framerate, but also the resolution.

If you want "full HD," then the camera should be able to do 1080p60. That's the current maximum progressive vertical line resolution at the maximum frame rate. NONE of the video capable DSLRs are capable of recording that.

Don't bother worrying about "full HD." It's just a marketing term. High-end video cameras that record at 2K and 4K resolutions are already in the market. Would those cameras not be considered be "full HD?" if they recorded at 24fps?

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11-19-2010, 01:09 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spock Quote
I read a review (I forget where) that stated that the K5 HD video still left something to be desired.

The criticism was that:

1) the 1080P video only offers 25 fps - and not 24 and 30. Why is this important?

2) that 'full HD' should be 60fps - to be progressive and not interlaced. Why is this important?

Thanks and apologies if this has been covered before.
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11-19-2010, 10:15 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spock Quote
I read a review (I forget where) that stated that the K5 HD video still left something to be desired.

The criticism was that:

1) the 1080P video only offers 25 fps - and not 24 and 30. Why is this important?

2) that 'full HD' should be 60fps - to be progressive and not interlaced. Why is this important?

Thanks and apologies if this has been covered before.
There are no DSLRs with 1080p @60fps. I have the Panasonic HDC-TM700 with 1080p @60fps that has the best quality video of any consumer/prosumer camcorder.

Panasonic HDC-TM700 (click for full size image) :


Sony HDR-CX550V:


11-19-2010, 11:03 AM   #5
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technically 60 fps is better, yes.

BUT
all movies in the theatres are 24fps and somehow our eye seem to like this imperfect frequency.
So 25 fps is fine for me, even if it is 1 frame off
11-19-2010, 01:11 PM   #6
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Wow that water was dirty in that sailboat video :-)

One other thing is technically, it's not exactly 24fps. It's something strange like 23.97 or something IIRC...and 60fps is 59.9something. Some cameras are actually 24fps, but that's not truly HD...
Microsoft Windows Media - Understanding HD Formats
PAL is 25fps IIRC. NTSC is 24p
11-19-2010, 01:27 PM   #7
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According to the Wikipedia on HDTV:

Standard frame or field rates
  • 23.976 Hz (film-looking frame rate compatible with NTSC clock speed standards)
  • 24 Hz (international film and ATSC high definition material)
  • 25 Hz (PAL, SECAM film, standard definition, and high definition material)
  • 29.97 Hz (NTSC standard definition material)
  • 50 Hz (PAL & SECAM high definition material))
  • 59.94 Hz (ATSC high definition material)
  • 60 Hz (ATSC high definition material)
25fps is really for PAL and SECAMfilm standards - whereas 24fps is for international film and ATSC hi-def material (which is what HDTV in the USA is)
11-20-2010, 12:52 AM   #8
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Thanks for all the info guys. In Australia we use PAL so it looks like 25fps will work fine.

In the long run though I am concerned that the K7's video will be bettered - if not be 60fps cameras, then certainly by DSLRs that can autofocus in video mode. I think it is a bit disappointing that the K5 didn't add autofocus to its video function - especially as a Nikon(?) competitor now can.

It's sometimes hard to manually focus continously - and out-of-focus video looks amateurish.

11-20-2010, 05:51 AM   #9
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With video shoot with an SLR, you have to get used to editing. Even if you had a camera that auto focused with video, there would be plenty of times where it would snag the wrong focus point or search back and forth. Where you can, it is wise to stop down so as to give a bigger depth of field that most consumer camcorders have, negating the need to re focus a lot.

One thing that needs to be said is that the K5/7 have amazing auto white balance. This tends to make video shot with them look a lot better. Sure, you can fix white balance when editing, but it is nice when your video needs less tweaking after the fact.
11-20-2010, 08:05 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
According to the Wikipedia on HDTV:




Standard frame or field rates
  • 23.976 Hz (film-looking frame rate compatible with NTSC clock speed standards)
  • 24 Hz (international film and ATSC high definition material)
  • 25 Hz (PAL, SECAM film, standard definition, and high definition material)
  • 29.97 Hz (NTSC standard definition material)
  • 50 Hz (PAL & SECAM high definition material))
  • 59.94 Hz (ATSC high definition material)
  • 60 Hz (ATSC high definition material)
25fps is really for PAL and SECAMfilm standards - whereas 24fps is for international film and ATSC hi-def material (which is what HDTV in the USA is)

Note there's a difference between broadcast HDTV and HD video in general. This Wiki info refers to TV and HDTV broadcasting formats. For HD video there's quite a few "standard" formats available using various combinations of resolution, sampling rate (Hz), bit depth, optional encoding (MPEG, etc.). Check out the SMPTE 274 and 296 docs as a start.

Technically, government and industry refer to any device that has pixel reolution greater than NTSC or PAL as being 'high definition'. And NTSC/PAL resolution devices with higher samplng rates are considered 'enhanced definition'. And basically, anything greater than 1hz or 3hz is considered as being full motion video.

Having 1920x1080 or 1280x720 pixel resolution is really the common factor for being a 'true' high def device (versus 1440x1080, 920x540 or other tricks manufacturers played because of bandwidth ot resolution challenges).

RK
11-20-2010, 09:00 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by vespats Quote
technically 60 fps is better, yes.

BUT
all movies in the theatres are 24fps and somehow our eye seem to like this imperfect frequency.
So 25 fps is fine for me, even if it is 1 frame off
I like 24p too. But IMHO it is a bit blown out of proportion.

Today, most video playback devices (HDTV) adapt to 24p, 25/50p, 30/60p internally without loss in quality.

So, it comes down to your own workflow standard. If it is 24p, then the omission of 24p does hurt indeed.

The reason why cinema is 24p is that this seems to be about the lowest frequency the human eye starts to see no stutter.

However, cinema had to learn quite a number of tricks to achieve the smooth performance we now are all used to. E.g., the images must be blurred in fast action sequences and pans, ideally by adopting a slow shutter speed, possibly using ND filters. This results in a certain look, like the softness from a shallow DoF does too. We "learned" to associate this with quality productions.

But in itself, 24p and 25p are almost indistinguishable and both are not superior to 30p, 50p or 60p. George Lukas actually criticizes the adoption of 24p in the digital domain and proposed 48p. Because 50p or 60p is not adding further benefit. And because 30p, 25p and 24p are not enough.

So, if I must vote for any additional mode, it would be 720@48p.
11-20-2010, 10:17 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kubicide Quote
Note there's a difference between broadcast HDTV and HD video in general. This Wiki info refers to TV and HDTV broadcasting formats. For HD video there's quite a few "standard" formats available using various combinations of resolution, sampling rate (Hz), bit depth, optional encoding (MPEG, etc.). Check out the SMPTE 274 and 296 docs as a start.
Thank you for pointing that out - I was not aware of the difference - that HD video could be different for HDTV - I had been using it interchangeably.

FWIW - the Wikipedia on HD Video:


The frame rates do seem very similar and there is overlap - which kind of would make sense - why record something that requires conversion before broadcast?

The analogy would be our cameras shooting something other than JPGs that require us to convert every single pic before display -
I know, there will be those who'd be very quick to point out RAW capture, which is exactly that -
but I am sure that HD video can be as awkward as one would like to make it
11-24-2010, 04:00 AM   #13
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Further to the above:

I have read that it is not possible to change aperture during videos.

Why is this important? I would have assumed the camera would just follow a normal program line during video recording, adjusting shutter speed and aperture as necessary.
11-24-2010, 04:45 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spock Quote
Further to the above:

I have read that it is not possible to change aperture during videos.

Why is this important? I would have assumed the camera would just follow a normal program line during video recording, adjusting shutter speed and aperture as necessary.
I believe you can do this manually when using a lens with an aperture ring (such as FA, F, or A lenses) but the auto exposure may not adjust without bringing attention to itself. And if the aperture ring is not "de-clicked" you'll see (and hear) distinct stops on the video.
11-24-2010, 04:52 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
I believe you can do this manually when using a lens with an aperture ring (such as FA, F, or A lenses) but the auto exposure may not adjust without bringing attention to itself. And if the aperture ring is not "de-clicked" you'll see (and hear) distinct stops on the video.
There are two modes for shooting. One is full automatic where the camera chooses everything (aperture, shutter speed and iso). The other mode is aperture priority and in that you choose the aperture and the camera then chooses shutter speeds and iso appropriate to that. I am not certain what happens if you switch the aperture during shooting manually, but I would say it would better to pause the video, adjust it and then restart.
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