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11-26-2010, 04:25 AM   #46
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Instead of trying to exclude unpleased members just try to bearing with them will bring more useful discussion environment here. Otherwise forum would be a simply self satisfying fanboy center. My impression is that OGL loves Pentax that much and was planning to purchase a K-5, but he is in pain because K-5 results did not meet his expectations. Otherwise he wouldn't stay here one more second. Also anyone can ignore him anytime in the case of annoyance.

To me, such discussions bring more photo samples, which is a good, I am also trying to provocate members for more samples sometime.

11-26-2010, 04:26 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erik Quote
Why? You're not going to actually lose any information.
It's only way to get really sharp photos from K-5 is to remove AA filter.
To add addtional sharp in software could easy spoil picture
11-26-2010, 04:30 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
My impression is that OGL loves Pentax that much he is in pain because K-5 results did not meet his expectations. Otherwise he wouldn't stay here one more second. Also anyone can ignore him anytime in the case of annoyance.
Thank you very much for your responsible opinion.
I can say that K-5 is the best Pentax camera in terms of DR, AF, high ISO noise level and functionality, with really good colours.
But not with best IQ. With rather strong AA filter.
11-26-2010, 04:42 AM   #49
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I wouldn't exclude anyone, but the pain of ogl is incurable. Of course, a premium camera at a relatively low price must bear some compromise. The supposed lack of microcontrast is not going to be noticed in any way if you print. So, I suggest ogl to buy a Leica. It's a premium camera at a premium price, and doesn't sport any AA filter. You are not going to see micro-contrast differences in prints, but ogl's passion for pixel-peeping would be definitely satisfied.
This discussion is not constructive, he will not be satisfied by new images.
QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Instead of trying to exclude unpleased members just try to bearing with them will bring more useful discussion environment here. Otherwise forum would be a simply self satisfying fanboy center. My impression is that OGL loves Pentax that much and was planning to purchase a K-5, but he is in pain because K-5 results did not meet his expectations. Otherwise he wouldn't stay here one more second. Also anyone can ignore him anytime in the case of annoyance.

To me, such discussions bring more photo samples, which is a good, I am also trying to provocate members for more samples sometime.


11-26-2010, 04:42 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
But not with best IQ. With rather strong AA filter.
That's where we disagree. The K-5 AA filter is just right. A too weak or no AA filter brings no extra useful details and in some case will bring many false details. Use a good sharpening tool (ex: Nik Sharpener, Topaz Infocus, etc.) and get razor sharp looking pictures. If you print, sharpening is mandatory anyway so I don't understand why you're insisting on having a sharp raw picture out of camera.

A weak AA filter is only good for pixel peepers. A stronger one is better for those who look at the whole picture. As Falk said, a weak AA filter can destroy tonality. Isn't that more important than sharpness at 100% ?
11-26-2010, 04:56 AM   #51
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And, just to add something interesting to the discussion:
I don't think a cmos sensor without AA would give good results. Cmos sensors gained market share cause of the lower cost, but CCD is superior, and perhaps Foveon is even better.
Cmos has to be heavily treated to give a clean image, and is superior only in the high iso stuff. Lack of AA filter would only amplify it's inherent problems. Develop a K-5 RAW with a "rough" software, and you'll see hot pixels here and there, as you see more clearly in the D7000 version.
No way. A treated image will be a tad softer. Perhaps the K-5 compromise is the best one, judging by moire and hot pixels seen in the Nikon.
So, what are we discussing here? K-5 sports the best sensor around. Are there any better sensors around? Yes. Leica's Kodak, and again, perhaps, Sigma's foveon.
Then, ask Pentax to put something different (better) in the camera, and then ask ogl and everyone else to accept bad results over 800/1600 iso...
11-26-2010, 05:01 AM   #52
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Once ogl starts beating a drum, he beats it incessantly. It is like a kid with a question or idea stuck in his head. "I need RAW files! I need RAW files!" "The AA filter is too strong! The AA filter is too strong!" "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
11-26-2010, 05:04 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
That's where we disagree. The K-5 AA filter is just right. A too weak or no AA filter brings no extra useful details and in some case will bring many false details. Use a good sharpening tool (ex: Nik Sharpener, Topaz Infocus, etc.) and get razor sharp looking pictures. If you print, sharpening is mandatory anyway so I don't understand why you're insisting on having a sharp raw picture out of camera.

A weak AA filter is only good for pixel peepers. A stronger one is better for those who look at the whole picture. As Falk said, a weak AA filter can destroy tonality. Isn't that more important than sharpness at 100% ?
Quite true. The question is not whether you want artificial sharpness, but a photo which really captures what is there. There are a lot more limitations placed on you with too weak an AA filter than with the right strength filter.

11-26-2010, 05:06 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Once ogl starts beating a drum, he beats it incessantly. It is like a kid with a question or idea stuck in his head. "I need RAW files! I need RAW files!" "The AA filter is too strong! The AA filter is too strong!" "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
manage account -> edit ignored users
11-26-2010, 05:21 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
manage account -> edit ignored users
Done.
11-26-2010, 05:35 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It's only way to get really sharp photos from K-5 is to remove AA filter.
What? No. Are you serious? Because: no. But that's not what I was asking, I was asking why you couldn't upsample a K10D image and compare it to the K-5 if you're serious that 10 MP with a weak AA filter is going to outresolve 16 MP with a stronger one.

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
But not with best IQ.
Yeah? Which Pentax camera(s) would outresolve the K-5, except the 645D?
11-26-2010, 05:42 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erik Quote



Yeah? Which Pentax camera(s) would outresolve the K-5, except the 645D?
K-x, K10D, K200D in terms of sharpness. maybe K-m (I don't know)
11-26-2010, 05:44 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
K-x, K10D, K200D in terms of sharpness. maybe K-m (I don't know)
You are talking about pixel level acutance, which is meaningless in the real world. Basically, you are saying this: "The K-5 is the best Pentax camera in every way except the pixel-to-pixel contrast is lower than the K10D when looking at 100% crops on a computer screen" And yes, I'm inclined to agree, but you MUST realize that this is an absolutely meaningless comparison unless you upsample the K10D image to the K-5's native resolution. The K10D will still print blurrier at a given print size.

EDIT: Even your beloved Photozone's intial measurements confirm this. The K-5 does resolve more detail (line pairs) than the K10D, it's just not significant enough for the guy who runs Photozone to care. Big whoop.
11-26-2010, 05:57 AM   #59
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Another thread that now I will stop following
11-26-2010, 06:08 AM   #60
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Is there any evidence that in camera chip processed raw sharpness is in anyway better then post processing a raw file? I cannot fathom there'd be different algorithms for the process in pentax software, with the exception of utilising more complexity on a pc with the extra power/processing available. So why wouldn't it be a non-issue? If you shoot raw, you plan on dragging around sliders. If you shoot jpeg, you have in camera settings to meddle with. It's like plugging in a guitar amp, setting all the knobs to noon and then going 'nah needs more treble'. With the knob staring at you.
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