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11-27-2010, 11:47 PM   #166
ogl
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It's amateur test - resize K-5 till K10D.
Here are crops - I don't see any difference.
FA43@f5.6

K10D


K-5


11-27-2010, 11:51 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
To say honest, not better than K-5.
...


Grrrr.
Directly including a 10.7 MB (11,172,895 bytes) image in your post.
11-27-2010, 11:54 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote

Grrrr.
Directly including a 10.7 MB (11,172,895 bytes) image in your post.
I think that there are no places in big countries with slow internet. Sorry.
11-27-2010, 11:59 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think that there are no places in big countries with slow internet.
Efficiency and netiquette is (or should be) universal though: thumbnail or reduced size image and then a link to the original image.

Why waste bandwidth too. 1000 views of this page and you've eaten up 10GB of data just from that one post. You can do better.

11-28-2010, 12:11 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think that there are no places in big countries with slow internet. Sorry.
Why not try common courtesy on for size?
Considering this this is a community arrangement and all...
11-28-2010, 12:56 AM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
To say honest, not better than K-5.



Here are some good samples of K-5
K-5 - огл - Участники - Фотогалерея iXBT

(full size inside)
Without knowing whether or not were looking at a lens discrepancy, I'd say the difference is visible:



K-5 CROP:


D7K CROP:


Both samples have been sharpened at the threshold of artifacts. And though, I'm sure the K-5 could likely improve with advanced sharpening, I can't really say that it would be a feasible option to expect to recovery all of the detail in the process(within limits).

Last edited by JohnBee; 11-28-2010 at 01:33 AM.
11-28-2010, 01:40 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Without knowing whether or not were looking at a lens discrepancy, I'd say the difference is visible:

....
How about the difference in lens used ?

Its quite possible the very best Nikon glass may be a bit better than the best Pentax glass, especially at such micro-level detail. The difference in cost would certainly suggest so...

Anyway in practice, such a difference in fine detail is only visible under carefully controlled , laboratory-like conditions. For day-to-day photography, even for professional work, I doubt you can see any difference.
11-28-2010, 01:50 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Both samples have been sharpened at the threshold of artifacts. And though, I'm sure the K-5 could likely improve with advanced sharpening, I can't really say that it would be a feasible option to expect to recovery all of the detail in the process(within limits).
K-5 lose eh? This is simply sad.

EDIT: Holding the comment. waiting for the focus issue resolved


Last edited by cbaytan; 11-28-2010 at 02:25 AM.
11-28-2010, 02:06 AM   #174
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Dude, in your example the K5 is out of focus (it is so obvious I wonder how you can't see it).

In the examples below you can see the difference in detail both in RAW and jpg from K5 vs D7000 - 60D and D300s. I took the liberty of magnifying them to 400% (with zoom, not resizing) for you to be able to see better. For the resolution comparison K5 is in the upper left. My settings for raw were 0 NR and nothing else. The jpg files were untouched.

The last image illustrates the noise at minimum ISO for each of the cameras (k5 is right down this time, sorry).

I also made a comparison with the K7 (not included here) and the K5 has a clear better resolution. My only thought is that your lenses have back or front focus and it is obvious if you shoot a plane to get soft image, that's not from a strong AA filter but from a slightly blurred image. This problem is persistent in most of the images also from Imaging-Resource, just look at the model pictures for each camera (k5 has a clear front focus).

With best regards, Alexandru
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11-28-2010, 02:37 AM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It's amateur test - resize K-5 till K10D.
Here are crops - I don't see any difference.
Is it snowing outside? Or are there a lot of noise on K10D window side?
11-28-2010, 03:32 AM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Without knowing whether or not were looking at a lens discrepancy, I'd say the difference is visible:
Where are these images from?

I'd say they are not fit for comparison.

The D7000 image has higher global contrast (compare in particular the different white points), has received more sharpening (visible sharpening halos), and has less noise.

No EXIF data available so we don't know much except that the differences (even in white balance) are too big to allow a comparison of AA filters.

Last edited by Class A; 11-28-2010 at 04:23 AM.
11-28-2010, 03:56 AM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote

Grrrr.
Directly including a 10.7 MB (11,172,895 bytes) image in your post.
That's funny.
11-28-2010, 04:22 AM - 1 Like   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
...I think, Klaus and me have a much more similiar position than the forum dynamics makes people believe.
That's good to hear but currently difficult to see for people not being able to listen to your conversations.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
E.g., consider that the term "aggressive post-sharpening" (for USM 0.5) could be meant in a general sense.
I don't understand. How does the meaning change when the interpretation is made "in a general sense"?

Klaus says "A USM of 0.5 produces sharpening halos and increased noise as well as reduced (unrecoverable) micro contrast.".
You say "As seen in the edge function, there is no overshooting in the edge (halo) and the MTF has no false maximum too.".

Klaus says the K-5 has a "rather aggressive AA filter", an "AA issue" and is "...guessing that the K5 has a strong AA filter. The 'softness' may also originate in RAW NR.".
You say "The K-5 has no strong AA filter or any softness 'issue'".

I'd really like you two to be on the same page and have similar positions but it really doesn't come across like that. One may assume that Klaus' comments should always be seen in the context of his special lens measurement requirements but while he sometimes says that he doesn't recommend the removal of the AA filter to "normal users", at the same time he seems to endorse weak/no AA filters outside lens measurement labs.

So I'm not sure where Klaus stands but it is difficult to see that he and you are supposed to share similar positions. Why do I care? Well, a) I feel the way Klaus still comments about the K-5 represents unjust criticism, and b) I'm not entirely convinced that how he uses the K10D in his lens tests is a 100% reliable. By posting questions on his forum I tried to understand him better on both accounts but so far without luck.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If Klaus can produce more reliable lens test figures using a weaker (or no) AA filter is another (interesting) question. But of no real concern to photographers.
I agree that the answer to the question is of no concern to photographers (as opposed to people making measurements in labs using B&W charts) but I'm very interested in answers to that question. I tried to get answers from Klaus as to how he justifies his claim about the lower than expected LW/PH differences between K10D and K-5 -- ("The max. LW/PH are barely higher than the ones of the K10D. ") -- but unfortunately I haven't been successful.

P.S.: You might want to try a trial version of LR3. The improved demosaicing and sharpening (compard to LR2) might have a slight influence on your findings. For instance, perhaps there might be less maze artefacts.

Last edited by Class A; 11-28-2010 at 04:34 AM.
11-28-2010, 04:40 AM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It's amateur test - resize K-5 till K10D. Here are crops - I don't see any difference. FA43@f5.6
it's my test)
original PEFs from this test are located here

K-5
http://files.mail.ru/5LT8MM

K10
it was required to set -0.7 EV for to auto metering for K10 to obtain same brightness of resulting image and avoid huge highligt clipping
http://files.mail.ru/A3T1AP

here are full jpegs (in-camera processing with natutal and all standard/auto settings)
K-5 http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/233169/32509D3R4M0RZBO/O6NJvpz60P/567934.jpg
K10 http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/233169/32509D3R4M0RZBO/O6NJvpz60P/567457.jpg

here you can find examples of same picture taken with same lens and same settings on K10, K-7 and K-5 on different ISO settings
http://fotkidepo.ru/?id=album:32509

i don't think "natural" is best image mode for these camers, so i did also pictures with Bright settings (harp +1, contract +1 for K-5 and K-7 and -1 for K10)

small note - resize of all pictures to one size of K10 image is not right approach to compare resolution. resolution will be decreased with resize (because resize process will remove or join some pixels).
it's better to resize K10 image to size of K-5 image if you want to compare resolution more or less correctly )

my own view (as I have all 3 camers togeather) is K-7 has at least 20% advantage in real resolution comparing to K10 and K-7
this difference is even increasing for ISO 800 and higher

Last edited by Siniy; 11-28-2010 at 05:52 AM. Reason: combining of 2 posts
11-28-2010, 04:57 AM   #180
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I wanted a camera that can stand 50-100% crops. I need very good detail. I have the glass, it is a shame I will not have a camera that will compete. I am very dissapointed. I was going to order the k-5 about a week ago and now the price is down to 1399. But i was bitten so bad with the k-7 I am gunshy. That Nikon looks so good to me. Detail so good in the crops. Such a shame about this. I am always rooting for the underdog but this time it doesn't win,,,, again. I'm afraid Pentax will not have any converts with this.
I'm keeping my glass with the hopes Pentax will eventually have a good camera. But I am now slowely switching to Nikon.

Last edited by garyk; 11-28-2010 at 05:06 AM.
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