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11-28-2010, 07:13 AM   #196
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ogl: stop torturing yourself, send me that crap k-5 and i'll dig out a k10d for you to replace it. cut your losses while you still can, life is short!

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nanok, mumbling "can't believe this is still being discussed"

11-28-2010, 07:19 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by Machspeed Quote
OK then, understood. We can agree then that this "normal situations" could not provide us with an absolute conclusion when comparing 2 cameras at 200% zooming. It's an interesting exercise but that's all.. Anyway, in my opinion, CMOS sensors are not meant for extracting maximum sharpness. We are deluding ourselves if we are basing our choices of a CMOS based DSLR purchase exclusively on this. If we want maximum sharpness per pixel there are far better choices. On the other hand, High ISO performance and Dynamic Range are other characteristics to watch for in a CMOS sensor.
i remember real per-pixel sharpness from 6MP sensors only)
if we are talking about crop-size sensors of course. full-size or bigger size - it's another story.

in real life (using K10 and K-5 in parralel) i see noticeable advantage of K-5 in terms of resolution. that's it)
i love K10 and i will not get rid of it even after K-5 (because K10 has.. soul inside)
at the same time i have also K-7 and i want to sell it now after i bought K-5

Last edited by Siniy; 11-28-2010 at 07:25 AM.
11-28-2010, 07:27 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think that there are no places in big countries with slow internet. Sorry.
Ever tried to read PF with your mobile

QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Without knowing whether or not were looking at a lens discrepancy, I'd say the difference is visible:
K-5 CROP:
D7K CROP:
Both samples have been sharpened at the threshold of artifacts.
That's not correct.
Both samples aren't sharp.
The D7000 sample has an edge blur of 2.7px, the K-5 of 3.0px. The D7000 edge blur function shows sharpening artefacts, the K-5 doesn't. Both are not sharp!

So, that's a pretty useless and meaningless comparison.

I think, after my elaborate resolution measurement a couple posts up, there remains nothing to be said about the topic.

Except somebody does the same quality test for two cameras, K-5 and another one.


The citation of arbitrary images taken out of the web to illustrate whatever point has to stop. Of course, that's my humble opinion only. But it is.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
That's good to hear but currently difficult to see for people not being able to listen to your conversations.

I don't understand. How does the meaning change when the interpretation is made "in a general sense"?

Klaus says "A USM of 0.5 produces sharpening halos and increased noise as well as reduced (unrecoverable) micro contrast.".
You say "As seen in the edge function, there is no overshooting in the edge (halo) and the MTF has no false maximum too.".

[...]

P.S.: You might want to try a trial version of LR3.
Class A (I don't know if you made your first name public here),

you're right. But I appreciate keeping private communications private.

As for USM 0.5: it may often be an aggressive setting when applied to images (e.g. to JPGs out of camera) but not necessarily to RAWs out of newer Pentax.

I only use LR 2.x to have a known point of reference. Some test sites are still using LR 1.x for the same reason (they won't necessarily tell you though). It can be challenging to use an old LR with a new camera. But the DNG converter solves that. I actually use LR3 for my photography.


I think I cannot contribute to the matter anymore beyond what I already did. I may post again if Klaus asks me to send you a message. But otherwise, I don't see what could be added to this thread.
11-28-2010, 07:27 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by Siniy Quote
(because K10 has.. soul inside)
Really? I missed that in the specs

11-28-2010, 08:08 AM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
ogl: stop torturing yourself, send me that crap k-5 and i'll dig out a k10d for you to replace it. cut your losses while you still can, life is short!

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nanok, mumbling "can't believe this is still being discussed"
There's the irony. Unless I missed something here, I don't believe he has a K5. This is all his interpretation of other people's opinion; and his opinion of what the pictures would look like from his K5 if he had one.
11-28-2010, 08:11 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Machspeed Quote

Anyway, in my opinion, CMOS sensors are not meant for extracting maximum sharpness. We are deluding ourselves if we are basing our choices of a CMOS based DSLR purchase exclusively on this.
You think so? Check this out, it has CMOS sensor:

Nikon D3X Studio Shot

If you think it is not fair comparing with FF, check with a smaller CMOS sensor.

Canon 60D

I am not promoting 60D because in real life shots D60 shots are very little better than K-5 in sharpness (When the studio environment signal/noise ratio drops) but with K-5's huge DR superiority the choice becomes very personal between the two.

60D real life

K-5 real life

Last edited by cbaytan; 11-28-2010 at 08:21 AM.
11-28-2010, 08:24 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Real life? You know that's a photo of a poster, right?

The IR comparometer is unreliable. Check the K20D photos, they're a blurry mess.
11-28-2010, 08:51 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Real life? You know that's a photo of a poster, right?

The IR comparometer is unreliable. Check the K20D photos, they're a blurry mess.
Really? So how come leaves are falling, people is getting in and out in the same scene? Even owner of the house put a white cover on the tree trunk, or am I hallucinating or are you kidding?

11-28-2010, 09:17 AM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Really? So how come leaves are falling, people is getting in and out in the same scene? Even owner of the house put a white cover on the tree trunk, or am I hallucinating or are you kidding?
Now I'm confused. I'm not kidding, are you kidding now? Your link points to a standard test in the Imaging Resources Comparometer. The title of the test photo is "House Poster".

From the test description page on IR: "We're also looking to upgrade the House poster to a much higher resolution (> 400 megapixels) one. We'll continue shooting the old current House poster for some time though, to facilitate comparisons of new and older cameras."
11-28-2010, 09:23 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Now I'm confused. I'm not kidding, are you kidding now? Your link points to a standard test in the Imaging Resources Comparometer. The title of the test photo is "House Poster".

From the test description page on IR: "We're also looking to upgrade the House poster to a much higher resolution (> 400 megapixels) one. We'll continue shooting the old current House poster for some time though, to facilitate comparisons of new and older cameras."
LOL there must be something wrong with that description, you aren't noticed fallen leaves, people sitting on the garden sometime, flowers growing, I bet you haven't seen the Halloween punkin carved by the owners in one picture next to door. (Check above my links) That must be pretty dynamic poster if it is one.
11-28-2010, 09:50 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
LOL there must be something wrong with that description, you aren't noticed fallen leaves, people sitting on the garden sometime, flowers growing, I bet you haven't seen the Halloween punkin carved by the owners in one picture next to door. (Check above my links) That must be pretty dynamic poster if it is one.
Go here; Canon EOS 60D Digital Camera Test - Initial Test - The Imaging Resource!. Scroll down to the description of the house photo.

House Shot
Like several of our tests, these images are actually photos of a high-resolution poster, shot under studio lighting. The shots for this camera were captured with our third-generation House poster, which was assembled from 45 separate 11-megapixel images, shot with a very high-quality lens, and then stitched together into a single image.


I'm sorry now that I brought it up. I just thought it was funny to call this "real life". In the end, that's not my main point. It's unfortunate that a tool as useful as the Comparometer shoud be, is seriously flawed. Have you looked at the K20d photos? That alone should be enough to prove my point.

Last edited by audiobomber; 11-28-2010 at 09:59 AM.
11-28-2010, 10:18 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I'm sorry now that I brought it up. I just thought it was funny to call this "real life". In the end, that's not my main point. It's unfortunate that a tool as useful as the Comparometer shoud be, is seriously flawed. Have you looked at the K20d photos? That alone should be enough to prove my point.
This is a different description.

They already mention your concerns:

From: Canon EOS 60D Digital Camera Test - Initial Test - The Imaging Resource!

---------------Descrp ->
Far-Field Test

While the House poster in the shot above provides absolute repeatability from test to test, it doesn't offer the range of brightness (dynamic range) that the original scene had, nor does it contain the nearly infinite range of fine detail found in nature. For these reasons, we still shoot the original house, even though the vagaries of nature mean that no two shots will ever be directly comparable. (In fact, over the eight or so years since we first shot this subject, the trees in front of the house have now grown so large that they obscure much of the subject. - We're unfortunately going to have to switch to a different subject in the near future.)

Things to look for here are how well the camera handles the range of light levels from very bright to quite dark, and how well it renders the very fine detail visible in various parts of the image.

Note though, that because this is shot outdoors, the character of the light is unavoidably going to change quite a bit, depending on the atmospheric humidity and the time of year. - You thus shouldn't rely on it for absolute comparisons between cameras, since it's unlikely that conditions will be identical from one test to the next.
--------------------End of Descp.

And hell yeah, I've checked the very blurry K20D result, it must be taken on a very dark day, or more looks like a camera/mirror/shutter shake.
11-28-2010, 10:31 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
You think so? Check this out, it has CMOS sensor:

Nikon D3X Studio Shot
So what? There are phone cameras that are CMOS too.. I said that if you want maximum sharpness per pixel CMOS sensors are the last to turn to. CCD and Faveon are better in this regard. And this is off-topic as well.
If you want to do professional studio photography you don't go for a D3X or K5. Pentax 645D or Hasselblad digital backs... Leica M9, that's where you'll find sharpness. All are CCD based sensors. APS-C CMOS sensor as a studio tool? Don't think so.
11-28-2010, 11:09 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Machspeed Quote
So what? There are phone cameras that are CMOS too.. I said that if you want maximum sharpness per pixel CMOS sensors are the last to turn to. CCD and Faveon are better in this regard. And this is off-topic as well.
If you want to do professional studio photography you don't go for a D3X or K5. Pentax 645D or Hasselblad digital backs... Leica M9, that's where you'll find sharpness. All are CCD based sensors. APS-C CMOS sensor as a studio tool? Don't think so.
This is the point, CMOS D3x is also a real studio camera, I have local references but this really OT as you said, better cut it short.

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnwf2RShNV0[/YT]

Last edited by cbaytan; 11-28-2010 at 11:25 AM.
11-28-2010, 11:45 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Really? I missed that in the specs
That's funny too!

Is this out of control?
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