LumoLabs: Shutter induced blur (or not) with the Pentax K-5 camera

deadwolfbones · 12-01-2010, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by ogl

No good news.

Jesus Christ, stop it.

ogl · 12-02-2010, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

Jesus Christ, stop it.

Did you read Falk's work?

The situation is better than K-7's only at ~ 1/80. If you pay attetion that K-7 has the worst shutter blur at 1/100 between Pentax cameras,
you understand my words.

K-5 is between K-7 and K20D now.
At 1/40 and 1/160 - no any difference with K-7.

The sensor is floating. Nothing is changed drastically.

What did you expect?

Abstract · 12-02-2010, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by ogl

Did you read Falk's work?

The situation is better than K-7's only at ~ 1/80. If you pay attetion that K-7 has the worst shutter blur at 1/100 between Pentax cameras,
you understand my words.

K-5 is between K-7 and K20D now.
At 1/40 and 1/160 - no any difference with K-7.

The sensor is floating. Nothing is changed drastically.

What did you expect?

Is this bad and is this an exaggeration?

http://falklumo.blogspot.com/2010/07/lumolabs-shutter-induced-blur-with-slr.html

"In these cases, we highly recommend to shoot at 1/25s (or slower) and to enable shake reduction as it is highly efficient at such exposure speeds. The images will be sharper than at 1/100s!"

That seems insane.

JohnBee · 12-02-2010, 12:38 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Abstract

Quick questions, now this shutter blur, does it effect other cameras in this caliber of different brands, what is it exactly, should I be concerned?

As much as I hate to say it, I share a certain disappointment along with ogl on this one.

There has been talk of blur in D7000 forums as well(I have seen this myself). Though whether or not it is relative to this has yet to be determined.
But what concerns me now is whether or not the effect in the range where I do most of my shooting: 1/125- 1/600.
I know the report states day to day photography. But my goal with the K-5 is large format printing(super resolution) and the idea of shutter vibe or blur is of great concern to me.

Are their any figures to look at in this range?
And more importantly... how does it measure up against other camera's such as the K200 or K20D?
Also, are they any samples with the blur effect that we could look at?
Is it distinguishable from other types of blurring?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I didn't really follow the initial shutter blur report as I didn't own a K-7 at the time.
Anyways, I'm going to scrutinize the info and see what else I can dig-up.

Added later...

Couple more questions:
Does the blur change with continuous shooting?
Is there any way to minimize or eliminate the effect? (turning off SR, mirror-up etc)

Last edited by JohnBee; 12-02-2010 at 12:47 AM.

Abstract · 12-02-2010, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by JohnBee

Does the blur change with continuous shooting?

I can sorta answer this(Correct me if I am wrong)

Lets say you use continuous shooting you have a better chance of landing a shot with less blur from my experience with my Nikon in which I used manual lenses with no SR.

ogl · 12-02-2010, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Abstract

Is this bad and is this an exaggeration?

Falk Lumo: LumoLabs: Shutter-induced blur with an SLR camera

"In these cases, we highly recommend to shoot at 1/25s (or slower) and to enable shake reduction as it is highly efficient at such exposure speeds. The images will be sharper than at 1/100s!"

That seems insane.

It sounds insane for me too.

Abstract · 12-02-2010, 01:10 AM

Just a random thought that popped into my head, do we really need shake reduction at a shutter of 1/100 and above? Am I missing something cause I always felt that images came out clear at anything above this...I always had trouble at 1/60 and below. I don't know, trying to figure all this out.

janneman · 12-02-2010, 01:22 AM

We have seen examples of K-7 but even there the measured blurr was 3-4 pixels which is not much if you take the sensor size (roughly) at 4500 x 3000 pixels, i.e. about 0.1%. That would on a an A2 print mean a "blurriness"of 0.5-1 mm....

Now after the blurriness posts (which ofcourse tests have proved to exist) we saw numerous "look how bad it is"blurry pics... But those samples were much worse so I wonder if there are OTHER issues as well??

ogl · 12-02-2010, 02:13 AM

I have a lot of blurred pictures with FA77 at 1/125-1/160 with my K200D.
To abuse Pentax is poinlessly. I got it as FACT and try to use FA77 at 1/200 and shorter.

So...the same with K-5. It's unreal to tweak at 100%. Floating sensor, very small body of Pentax cameras and high speed shooting can't make it possible. IMO.

Class A · 12-02-2010, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I am now in the loop with engineering via a translation hop by a Hoya executive manager who is Japanese and speaks English.

Awesome!

Hope they'll let your company develop Remote Assistant II.

**andre-mz5** · 12-02-2010, 03:10 AM

I would be interested to see if this type of blur is also noticed on SONY DSLR which use in-body SR too. Thus it is may be caused by the concept of using in-body SR. For verification these test should also be executed with a 7D or D7000 which should show NO BLUR at all since they do not use in-body SR.

kittykat46 · 12-02-2010, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by Abstract

Just a random thought that popped into my head, do we really need shake reduction at a shutter of 1/100 and above? Am I missing something cause I always felt that images came out clear at anything above this...I always had trouble at 1/60 and below. I don't know, trying to figure all this out.

You do need shake reduction for 1/100 secs shutter speed when you are using a 300mm lens. I have taken a few shots with the K-5 and the DA 55-300mm @ 300mm, and I haven't seen any blurring.

I'm no technical camera tester, just a hobbyist who does like sharp photos, and so far I haven't been disappointed with the K-5.

Another additional point worth noting is that many things can go wrong with a 300mm shot, with an inexperienced user, or even an experienced photographer making an occasional error.

Rin · 12-02-2010, 04:04 AM

i tried to recreate it but i am not able to do it, all my pics are perfectly sharp

secateurs · 12-02-2010, 04:13 AM

At the very least maybe they could update the firmware to get the camera to try to avoid the worst shutter speeds when the camera is in some of the auto modes.

Also, maybe they could disable the SR when the shutter speed > 1.5*1/focal length or some such number.

Of course, these are just quick fixes that don't really address the actual problem.

I'd be interested to know how the Pentax cameras stack up against the other major manufacturer's shutter blur.

ogl · 12-02-2010, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by andre-mz5

I would be interested to see if this type of blur is also noticed on SONY DSLR which use in-body SR too. Thus it is may be caused by the concept of using in-body SR. For verification these test should also be executed with a 7D or D7000 which should show NO BLUR at all since they do not use in-body SR.

Sony stabilisation system is different. Sensor is not floating.

12-02-2010, 01:22 AM	#23
janneman Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 908	Can it really be noticed in real life??? We have seen examples of K-7 but even there the measured blurr was 3-4 pixels which is not much if you take the sensor size (roughly) at 4500 x 3000 pixels, i.e. about 0.1%. That would on a an A2 print mean a "blurriness"of 0.5-1 mm.... Now after the blurriness posts (which ofcourse tests have proved to exist) we saw numerous "look how bad it is"blurry pics... But those samples were much worse so I wonder if there are OTHER issues as well??

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12-01-2010, 11:26 PM	#16
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	Originally posted by ogl No good news. Jesus Christ, stop it.

12-02-2010, 12:11 AM	#17
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by deadwolfbones Jesus Christ, stop it. Did you read Falk's work? The situation is better than K-7's only at ~ 1/80. If you pay attetion that K-7 has the worst shutter blur at 1/100 between Pentax cameras, you understand my words. K-5 is between K-7 and K20D now. At 1/40 and 1/160 - no any difference with K-7. The sensor is floating. Nothing is changed drastically. What did you expect?

12-02-2010, 12:32 AM	#18
Abstract Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: New York Photos: Gallery Posts: 388	Originally posted by ogl Did you read Falk's work? The situation is better than K-7's only at ~ 1/80. If you pay attetion that K-7 has the worst shutter blur at 1/100 between Pentax cameras, you understand my words. K-5 is between K-7 and K20D now. At 1/40 and 1/160 - no any difference with K-7. The sensor is floating. Nothing is changed drastically. What did you expect? Is this bad and is this an exaggeration? http://falklumo.blogspot.com/2010/07/lumolabs-shutter-induced-blur-with-slr.html "In these cases, we highly recommend to shoot at 1/25s (or slower) and to enable shake reduction as it is highly efficient at such exposure speeds. The images will be sharper than at 1/100s!" That seems insane.

12-02-2010, 12:38 AM - 1 Like	#19
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	Originally posted by Abstract Quick questions, now this shutter blur, does it effect other cameras in this caliber of different brands, what is it exactly, should I be concerned? As much as I hate to say it, I share a certain disappointment along with ogl on this one. There has been talk of blur in D7000 forums as well(I have seen this myself). Though whether or not it is relative to this has yet to be determined. But what concerns me now is whether or not the effect in the range where I do most of my shooting: 1/125- 1/600. I know the report states day to day photography. But my goal with the K-5 is large format printing(super resolution) and the idea of shutter vibe or blur is of great concern to me. Are their any figures to look at in this range? And more importantly... how does it measure up against other camera's such as the K200 or K20D? Also, are they any samples with the blur effect that we could look at? Is it distinguishable from other types of blurring? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I didn't really follow the initial shutter blur report as I didn't own a K-7 at the time. Anyways, I'm going to scrutinize the info and see what else I can dig-up. Added later... Couple more questions: Does the blur change with continuous shooting? Is there any way to minimize or eliminate the effect? (turning off SR, mirror-up etc) Last edited by JohnBee; 12-02-2010 at 12:47 AM.

12-02-2010, 12:47 AM	#20
Abstract Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: New York Photos: Gallery Posts: 388	Originally posted by JohnBee Does the blur change with continuous shooting? I can sorta answer this(Correct me if I am wrong) Lets say you use continuous shooting you have a better chance of landing a shot with less blur from my experience with my Nikon in which I used manual lenses with no SR.

12-02-2010, 01:00 AM	#21
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Abstract Is this bad and is this an exaggeration? Falk Lumo: LumoLabs: Shutter-induced blur with an SLR camera "In these cases, we highly recommend to shoot at 1/25s (or slower) and to enable shake reduction as it is highly efficient at such exposure speeds. The images will be sharper than at 1/100s!" That seems insane. It sounds insane for me too.

12-02-2010, 01:10 AM	#22
Abstract Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: New York Photos: Gallery Posts: 388	Just a random thought that popped into my head, do we really need shake reduction at a shutter of 1/100 and above? Am I missing something cause I always felt that images came out clear at anything above this...I always had trouble at 1/60 and below. I don't know, trying to figure all this out.

12-02-2010, 02:13 AM	#24
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	I have a lot of blurred pictures with FA77 at 1/125-1/160 with my K200D. To abuse Pentax is poinlessly. I got it as FACT and try to use FA77 at 1/200 and shorter. So...the same with K-5. It's unreal to tweak at 100%. Floating sensor, very small body of Pentax cameras and high speed shooting can't make it possible. IMO.

12-02-2010, 02:38 AM	#25
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye I am now in the loop with engineering via a translation hop by a Hoya executive manager who is Japanese and speaks English. Awesome! Hope they'll let your company develop Remote Assistant II.

12-02-2010, 03:10 AM	#26
andre-mz5 Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Eindhoven Photos: Gallery Posts: 268	I would be interested to see if this type of blur is also noticed on SONY DSLR which use in-body SR too. Thus it is may be caused by the concept of using in-body SR. For verification these test should also be executed with a 7D or D7000 which should show NO BLUR at all since they do not use in-body SR.

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12-02-2010, 03:13 AM	#27
kittykat46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 923	Originally posted by Abstract Just a random thought that popped into my head, do we really need shake reduction at a shutter of 1/100 and above? Am I missing something cause I always felt that images came out clear at anything above this...I always had trouble at 1/60 and below. I don't know, trying to figure all this out. You do need shake reduction for 1/100 secs shutter speed when you are using a 300mm lens. I have taken a few shots with the K-5 and the DA 55-300mm @ 300mm, and I haven't seen any blurring. I'm no technical camera tester, just a hobbyist who does like sharp photos, and so far I haven't been disappointed with the K-5. Another additional point worth noting is that many things can go wrong with a 300mm shot, with an inexperienced user, or even an experienced photographer making an occasional error.

12-02-2010, 04:04 AM	#28
Rin Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 87	i tried to recreate it but i am not able to do it, all my pics are perfectly sharp

12-02-2010, 04:13 AM	#29
secateurs Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Adelaide, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 250	At the very least maybe they could update the firmware to get the camera to try to avoid the worst shutter speeds when the camera is in some of the auto modes. Also, maybe they could disable the SR when the shutter speed > 1.5*1/focal length or some such number. Of course, these are just quick fixes that don't really address the actual problem. I'd be interested to know how the Pentax cameras stack up against the other major manufacturer's shutter blur.

12-02-2010, 04:33 AM	#30
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by andre-mz5 I would be interested to see if this type of blur is also noticed on SONY DSLR which use in-body SR too. Thus it is may be caused by the concept of using in-body SR. For verification these test should also be executed with a 7D or D7000 which should show NO BLUR at all since they do not use in-body SR. Sony stabilisation system is different. Sensor is not floating.