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12-06-2010, 05:46 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by nsfx Quote
Is it worth jumping the Nikon ship for the K-5? I don't have any super expensive Nikon glass I'm attached to, and I'd have to sell off my Sigma 30/1.4 if I upgraded to a full-frame D700 anyway. Comments and suggestions appreciated.
Interesting to see this many reservations.

nsfx may not come bacl to read the replies. But he addresses an interesting fact:


The K-5 coupled with a Sigma 30/1.4 or DA*55/1.4 shot at 1/8s to 1/15s (which the Pentax SR easily supports for sharp handheld shots) is:
the best performing low light free hand capture device money can buy. Any amount of money!!
So, I understand why the question is raised. If it is worth a switch depends on the value of that feature. But nobody currently bests it.


To set things into perspective:

1/8s, f/1.4 and ISO 12,800 (which does still look very good) is
-3 EV
Metering and AF won't work anymore. To translate this: This is dark night with no lights whatsoever, just near full moon!
The K-5 allows high quality free hand shots in moon light and probably is the only camera on the planet allowing to do so now (w/o stacking).
Side note: you can stop the foreground motion with a weak wireless hand-held flash and still have the entire scene illuminated amd sharp rather than disappearing in the dark or fuzzyness.


Last edited by falconeye; 12-06-2010 at 05:52 AM.
12-06-2010, 06:12 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
So basically you agreed with everything I have said.
No, I don't think Ratmagiclady agrees with you comment; you are merely restating what a Canon salesperson would talk about how superior IS works compare to other brands with nothing to substantiate that claim.

Last edited by aleonx3; 12-06-2010 at 06:24 AM.
12-06-2010, 06:15 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote

To set things into perspective:

1/8s, f/1.4 and ISO 12,800 (which does still look very good) is
-3 EV
Metering and AF won't work anymore. To translate this: This is dark night with no lights whatsoever, just near full moon!
The K-5 allows high quality free hand shots in moon light and probably is the only camera on the planet allowing to do so now (w/o stacking).
Side note: you can stop the foreground motion with a weak wireless hand-held flash and still have the entire scene illuminated amd sharp rather than disappearing in the dark or fuzzyness.
Falk, very interesting point, and may be I ought to try that sometime when I get the K-5. Again, thanks for the insight.

Last edited by aleonx3; 12-06-2010 at 06:26 AM.
12-06-2010, 06:25 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
Of course in body is attractive, but if you can get even better SR, why not go for the even better SR? This was before I realized all the lenses he would be using don't really have SR.
Are there any lenses faster than f/2.8 with built in shake reduction?
In practical terms, in lens SR and in body SR is a wash for effectiveness but...
If you are stuck with slow zoom lenses to get in lens SR, then that SR system would need to have a couple of stops of advantage to match a lens that has an f/1.4 maximum aperture, and the zoom is still giving up 2 stops of light, which will affect auto focus, viewfinder usability and may well throw shutter speeds slow enough that subject movement becomes unacceptable.
Canon and Nikon both use in lens SR primarily because they introduced it prior to DSLR introduction, when in body SR wasn't practical.
Apparently Nikon VR lenses give up some sharpness over their non VR lenses, so there seems to be a price to pay in that regard (stopping down even farther is IQ matters) and Canon looks set to introduce in body SR, which is kind of telling about what they've decided is better.

12-06-2010, 06:27 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I would not own a camera without SR.....sure, the new lenses often have it, at a higher price, but that does not help with older lenses or some of those classic primes.
I often use this as an example of what sold me on SR when I first got my K10D, but I have hundreds more equally as good....I just happen to like this one best.

I went out to check my propane level, and had my K10D with the Bigma mounted, SR on, since I had been shooting Squirrels through the glass bay window. I looked up and about 35-40 ft away was this handsome male Cardinal.....I aimed and shot. My older DS would never have gotten this shot. I think my K20D is even a tad better, and I look forward to the K5 being at least equal, and am sure it is.
Best Regards!
1/20 Handheld ISO 560 F6.7 @ 500mm (Bigma 50-500)
[/url] [/IMG]
Given the insane weight of the bigma this should answer any question about the effectivness of in body SR. If I shot a lot of nature I would consider a bigma as well but damn they are heavy
nice work
12-06-2010, 06:36 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Canon and Nikon both use in lens SR primarily because they introduced it prior to DSLR introduction, when in body SR wasn't practical.
Most Canikon owners don't realize this point; in fact, they (the companies) don't want them to know.

QuoteQuote:
Apparently Nikon VR lenses give up some sharpness over their non VR lenses, so there seems to be a price to pay in that regard (stopping down even farther is IQ matters) and Canon looks set to introduce in body SR, which is kind of telling about what they've decided is better.
The potential play in the EVIL mirrorless market has Canon think twice about getting smaller non-IS lens to go with the camera.
12-06-2010, 06:40 AM   #37
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my 2 cents
I agree with the statement that dropping below 1/50 will render a lot of street photoraphy too blurred, that being said sometime it works as well for you. as you don't have a huge investement in lenses the choice is really which system suites you best.
I would give a vote to the k5 over the d7000 for street just because you have a much less obtrusive camera, particularly with some of the compact primes out there. and the SR works with all lenses so you can pretty much buy anything you want. If you don't mind MF then you can assemble a pretty nice kit of primes to go with the body for a lot less than a similar nikon setup
If I was to switch Nikon would be where I would go but it would be for the FF option, and I'm just not that concerned (If I really need FF I just shoot film and got Medium format)
12-06-2010, 10:00 AM   #38
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I have used both and in many cases I prefer the In lens SR

There are certain circumstances where in body sr works against you or isn't as nice to use.

Even from 300mm, with superior breathing and handheld technique you will see visible shake, especially when holding for long periods of time on a subject, waiting for the right moment and it buggers with your concentration.

In lens sr gives a much much nicer experience

Also with rapid changing sequence's in low light where you shoot rapidly shot to shot in body sr creates blur as it has not had time to settle.

I'm talking of 1600 1/50 sec f5.6 as I need at least some DOF to work with with re: my subjects.

I found this out using a friends 5D MK11 and a number of IS lenses at 2500 F5.6 60sec and the number of keepers I obtained was significantly higher.

With a 400mm lens, holding for periods of 15 mins (tracking a climber at an indoor event) having in lens sr was a blessing as it really allowed me to "see" the subject.

With in body sr everything would be jittery

12-06-2010, 11:33 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The K-5 coupled with a Sigma 30/1.4 or DA*55/1.4 shot at 1/8s to 1/15s (which the Pentax SR easily supports for sharp handheld shots) is:
the best performing low light free hand capture device money can buy. Any amount of money!!
So, I understand why the question is raised. If it is worth a switch depends on the value of that feature. But nobody currently bests it.


To set things into perspective:

1/8s, f/1.4 and ISO 12,800 (which does still look very good) is
-3 EV
Metering and AF won't work anymore. To translate this: This is dark night with no lights whatsoever, just near full moon!
The K-5 allows high quality free hand shots in moon light and probably is the only camera on the planet allowing to do so now (w/o stacking).
Side note: you can stop the foreground motion with a weak wireless hand-held flash and still have the entire scene illuminated amd sharp rather than disappearing in the dark or fuzzyness.

Yeah. Dat, simply put, is da machine.

It's not the *only* sort of thing I do, but really, probably ninety-five percent of what I even need any particular high-tech for is part of being a good street/pub venue photo machine. The rest is just having solid basics. (Admittedly, a better high-tech flash system/return to true TTL would not go amiss for events/weddings and such. Getting a little slow on the ol' guide numbers in my old age. )


While I'm sure there are *livable* Nikon options, maybe Canon if you don't mind a dwindling supply of serious film bodies with hardly-immortal electronics, well, those livable options probably cost a lot more and presently can do less, at least. 'Street photography' and 'Massive Gear budget' don't usually go hand in hand, after all.



(I still want Pentax or someone to make what I call my Ratzeye screen concept: A focusing screen for fast lenses with a meter-not-obstructing ring of microprism focusing aid (Also snappy for fast lenses) around a plain matte center for critical focus and AF confirmation. Then you're *really* cooking. )

A little less-realistically, I'd like it if they did a little 'mea culpa' and handed out little shoe-mounted AF illuminators to the K20d faithful till we can get K-5s. (Speaking of 'how to available-negative EVs.' Teeny little bulb. There you go. )
12-06-2010, 11:11 PM   #40
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Thank you everyone for the helpful replies. I wasn't expecting this much input. I feel warmly welcomed.

In any case, I see a K-5 is in my future. I'm going to track its price for a bit here. Maybe it'll drop some more after the holidays.

Thanks again.
12-08-2010, 01:57 AM   #41
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Nsfx, what kind of night pictures do you usually take? You mentioned ISO1600 and lens wide open, but what are the typical shutter speeds?

I have my K-5, Sigma 30 f1.4 and DA* 16-50 f2.8 lenses with me today, temperature is above 0, so I may try to do a few quick snaps on my way home at the evening. (there's also a D70 here in the wardrobe, but only with the 18-70 kit lens so I can't really do a direct comparison, and I'm not sure if the D70 still works at all).

Edit: I'm afraid this has to wait a few days or week... since my K-5 has to fly to Germany (or wherever the new repair center is)

Last edited by simico; 12-08-2010 at 05:42 AM.
12-09-2010, 05:45 PM   #42
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nsfx:Ако купиш Пентакс ще имаш проблем при нощни снимки с ауто-фокуса,но с Никон ауто-фокус през нощта е ОК.
12-09-2010, 07:15 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by pefoto01 Quote
nsfx:Ако купиш Пентакс ще имаш проблем при нощни снимки с ауто-фокуса,но с Никон ауто-фокус през нощта е ОК.
That was true prior to K-5, but is no longer true. Even K-7 and K-x was a step forward, but K-5 is a hugh improvement in low light autofocus.

As for in body or in lens shake reduction. As wheatfield pointed out, the Nikon and Canon solution is sort of obsolete, since it was developed for film, where the film, unlike a digital sensor, could not be moved to correct for camera motions. Any day the companies using in body SR will catch up on all aspects of shake reduction, and there Canikon will be sitting with heavy and complex lenses without a clear advantage. As for comparing the effectiveness, I believe it is true to generalise in this way: lens SR is better for long focal lengths (which is indeed for what Canikon developed this for pro sport photographers etc), while in body SR is better for short focal lengths. Pentax in body SR makes wonders even at wide angles, which is very usefull if you shoot from the hip in low light, which I strangely enough often do.
12-09-2010, 07:57 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
lens SR is better for long focal lengths (which is indeed for what Canikon developed this for pro sport photographers etc), while in body SR is better for short focal lengths.
Pentax SR isn't that bad at long focal lengths.

E.g., my chart contains measurements for e.g., a K-7 + 300mm. The more conservative measurement (red line) shows an equal performance at 1/250s (SR off) and 1/90s (SR ON) despite the reduced effectiveness of the Pentax SR around 1/160s to 1/40s. That's 1.5 stops improvement. There's even about 1 stop improvement at 1/500s. The K-5 may well better 1.5 to 2 stops. Most lens-shift tele lenses are reported to gain 2 stops as well. So, only a few VR tele lenses actually outperform SR.

And as has been said, the technological potential of sensor shift is far superior and the negative impact on optical performance is minimal too. Sooner or later, Canikon will have to go sensor shift. Of course, only after Sony and/or Pentax SR performance has started to run circles around them. Which will happen sooner or later. But not immediately.

Point is, lens shift is to sell easier. It doesn't make the body more expensive. Look at the K-5 cut model and you'll understand how simplistic a non sensor-shift SLR looks in comparison.
12-09-2010, 10:09 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by pefoto01 Quote
nsfx: If you buy PENTAX will have a problem with night shots with auto-focus, but Nikon auto-focus during the night is OK. Original post in Bulgarian

This is no longer the case.
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