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12-09-2010, 01:26 PM   #16
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NaClH2O,

Fully respecting Your experience in this area..I still have some points.


Do You really think that in this world different countries exist?

(my answer is NO-there are people who can afford to buy a certain product and there are people who can't.)


Do You really think japanese companies have never thought with "European or American brain"?

(my answer is NO-as we all can see japanese cars are looking better and better-they certainly started to employ designers not from Japan.)



So why should we accept that kind of thinking? That is beyond my thinking really. It's either an international company (with international plans and interests) or..?


Andras

12-09-2010, 01:29 PM   #17
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Just got off the phone with Paul at the Pentax USA support number: (800) 877-0155

Very encouraging conversation. He acknowledged the problem and indicated that Pentax headquarters knows of the problem as well and that they are going through a discovery phase to determine the extent of the problem and what resolution would be best.

He offered that if I sent the camera in through the regular warranty channels, it would be repaired or replaced at their expense. However, he cautioned that I should really make sure it is indeed 'stained', and that from their position, they are potentially facing many customers that think they have the 'stains' but really just have dirty sensors that need cleaning... I suppose that is inevitable in situations like this and part of the fallout from such a slip up in the QC department, and because of that, Pentax should just grin and bare it and maybe even just do a few free sensor cleanings in reconciliation.

Paul told me that he would send my report to the people handling the issue and I should be hearing back from them once Pentax determines what their response to this will be.

I agree with Stringmike that being confrontational at this point makes no sense. These things happen sometimes and we ought to allow for that, especially in a newly released product.

To put Pentax on the defensive with an angry mob full of unreasonable demands would not be very constructive. I think it better for those of us having this issue to go little out of our way, be understanding, and work with Pentax to help them do the right thing.

After all, most of us have a year before our warranty is out, so there is really no great rush. And also for most of us, I would venture to guess, didn't even know we had 'sensor staining' until we heard about it on some forum.

At least for me, my K-5 still takes awesome shots. And for the 'stains' I have software to remove them. So, I am going to allow Pentax some time to figure things out, turn off this computer, turn on the camera, go outside and have some fun taking pictures.
12-09-2010, 01:43 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by oddshot Quote
Just got off the phone with Paul at the Pentax USA support number: (800) 877-0155

Very encouraging conversation. He acknowledged the problem and indicated that Pentax headquarters knows of the problem as well and that they are going through a discovery phase to determine the extent of the problem and what resolution would be best.

He offered that if I sent the camera in through the regular warranty channels, it would be repaired or replaced at their expense. However, he cautioned that I should really make sure it is indeed 'stained', and that from their position, they are potentially facing many customers that think they have the 'stains' but really just have dirty sensors that need cleaning... I suppose that is inevitable in situations like this and part of the fallout from such a slip up in the QC department, and because of that, Pentax should just grin and bare it and maybe even just do a few free sensor cleanings in reconciliation.

Paul told me that he would send my report to the people handling the issue and I should be hearing back from them once Pentax determines what their response to this will be.

I agree with Stringmike that being confrontational at this point makes no sense. These things happen sometimes and we ought to allow for that, especially in a newly released product.

To put Pentax on the defensive with an angry mob full of unreasonable demands would not be very constructive. I think it better for those of us having this issue to go little out of our way, be understanding, and work with Pentax to help them do the right thing.

After all, most of us have a year before our warranty is out, so there is really no great rush. And also for most of us, I would venture to guess, didn't even know we had 'sensor staining' until we heard about it on some forum.

At least for me, my K-5 still takes awesome shots. And for the 'stains' I have software to remove them. So, I am going to allow Pentax some time to figure things out, turn off this computer, turn on the camera, go outside and have some fun taking pictures.

Yes you are right..being confrontational doesn't help at all..BUT..this whole issue is very similar to what happens nowadays with every kind of product (mostly cars)..manufacturers don't spend enough time to TEST their products..as it takes to much time and too much money (as time is money)..so they rather let you and me buy it and test it at your and mine expense..and you know what..? I'm pretty sure they are already developing the camera that will replace the K-5 in 18 months..market dictates and quality goes down.

Andras
12-09-2010, 01:44 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by qtopplings Quote
(...)

Pentax should recall all stock and test each camera for this issue. That is the right thing to do.
right. while they're at it, they should also file for bankrupcy (why wait, it's unavoidable once you do such a recall). come on, let's be reasonable, and not blow this out of proportion.

(yes, my k-5 is out on it's way to the service, and i hope i'll get my good one soon; my trusty k20d is still here with me, and i'm not even a pro (...) ). cheer up, wake up...

12-09-2010, 01:52 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by planedriver Quote
Yes you are right..being confrontational doesn't help at all..BUT..this whole issue is very similar to what happens nowadays with every kind of product (mostly cars)..manufacturers don't spend enough time to TEST their products..as it takes to much time and too much money (as time is money)..so they rather let you and me buy it and test it at your and mine expense..and you know what..? I'm pretty sure they are already developing the camera that will replace the K-5 in 18 months..market dictates and quality goes down.

Andras
you are absolutely correct, Andras. so what's your point? would you rather pay 3k for a camera like the k-5, and be sure it is hand-tested for every possible flaw? there are options out there in that price (and hopefully qc) range.

imagine this: two k-5 models: the k-5_working_class and the k-5_posh_bastard, first one priced 1500 kit, second priced 2000 kit. difference? posh bastard comes with a guarantee of thorough qc (personalized if you wish, you can ask for specific tests), and (because i'm feeling generous today), a 24h exchange program only for manufacturing faults (warranty, but with quick return). which would you buy? working_class for sure, and not because you can't afford the 500, but because it's not critical enough for you to pay that cash.

as you said, market dictates. this is the way it is, and it's mostly our doing. imho, for the moment, things are not terrible (talking about dslrs, don't get me started on cars).
12-09-2010, 01:56 PM   #21
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As an addendum to my recent post of 15 minutes ago:

Pentax just called me back from a message I left last night. This time Bob assured me Pentax is on it and will fix/replace any of the cameras afflicted with the stains and added that even if a user did not notice the stains until after the 1 year warranty, they would still make the repair at their expense.

I know that is all talk at this point, but all I can do is trust that they will do what they say... if not, I know I chose the wrong camera company.
12-09-2010, 02:00 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by oddshot Quote
To put Pentax on the defensive with an angry mob full of unreasonable demands would not be very constructive.
You are absolutely right, but at this point I think that for 99% of us a simple "we've received complaints about this issue, we're investigating it, can we get back to you?" would go a LONG way restoring confidence in Pentax and most importantly get us off their backs.

Pat
12-09-2010, 02:10 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
right. while they're at it, they should also file for bankrupcy (why wait, it's unavoidable once you do such a recall). come on, let's be reasonable, and not blow this out of proportion.
We don't really know which party in the supply and assembly chain is responsible for the defect or which one will bear the cost of repairs. It might fall on someone other than Pentax.

Rob

12-09-2010, 02:12 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
you are absolutely correct, Andras. so what's your point? would you rather pay 3k for a camera like the k-5, and be sure it is hand-tested for every possible flaw? there are options out there in that price (and hopefully qc) range.

imagine this: two k-5 models: the k-5_working_class and the k-5_posh_bastard, first one priced 1500 kit, second priced 2000 kit. difference? posh bastard comes with a guarantee of thorough qc (personalized if you wish, you can ask for specific tests), and (because i'm feeling generous today), a 24h exchange program only for manufacturing faults (warranty, but with quick return). which would you buy? working_class for sure, and not because you can't afford the 500, but because it's not critical enough for you to pay that cash.

as you said, market dictates. this is the way it is, and it's mostly our doing. imho, for the moment, things are not terrible (talking about dslrs, don't get me started on cars).
well you made me thinking..the K-5 is the camera I dreamed about..everything is there what I love about Pentax (I have a k200d and the K-x)..superb ergonomics, lovely Pentax colors, SR-I really like the lens setup-great AF even AF-C is more than enough for me (and sometimes I like bird in flight pictures)..what else.. I really love this camera and I would never think about change it to a 7D as it doesn't feel that good in my hand as the K-5..

..but this issue is really a downfall..I would like to enjoy this camera now..and not packing it.

..and we all know that in this CaNikon world Pentax has to take two steps forward when the rest is taking only one..

..I start to feel that I should have bought some lenses instead of the K-5 as the advantages are really marginal..

..so this whole thing is also an emotional issue for me..as I always proudly
show my Pentax gear to people who like my pictures..

I'm not a pro..would I pay more for a 100% body?..good question..if I say yes then there's no end of price rise..if I say no that is somehow not true because I like this camera so much in every other way..and I like the IQ very very very much..(apart from this).


Andras
12-09-2010, 02:14 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
We don't really know which party in the supply and assembly chain is responsible for the defect or which one will bear the cost of repairs. It might fall on someone other than Pentax.

Rob
you continue to miss the point. all stock off the shelves for even a few weeks right now means _death_. regardless of cost to actually fix the cameras. it is also pointless.

imho, this is where they should use their resellers, have them do a quick test with each camera (msot don't sell so many, anyway, or have so many in stock), support them to get "clean" stock quickly when needed. this is also were buying from a "good" shop will prove meaningful, and where the good and worthy shops should win out (and rightfully so).
12-09-2010, 02:18 PM   #26
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Well, I hope Pentax sorts it out, and regardless of culture, I hope they make it clear they have fixed it.

I have cash and was waiting until after the first of the year bills have any unexpected changes that mess up my plan to get the k-5. However I really, really don't want to drop $1500 on a defective piece of junk.

Well back to my k-10.

When the k-20 ccame out, it wasn't that long after I bought it and didn't have the money.

When the k-7 came out, I really didn't like the increased noise over the old sensor, and the video seemed very tacked on. So I spent the money on lenses.

With the k-5, they pretty much nailed every feature I wanted plus tossed in a couple nice bonuses not on my must have list, and refined video a bit so it at least looks like it might be worth experimenting with in a serious way.

Pentax needs to stop convincing me to not upgrade.
12-09-2010, 02:20 PM   #27
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andras: i feel the same, i really like the camera, etc. i'm eager to get the "clean" one, asap, and i'll be angry if i don't have it next week (on monday ). but the point is, i won't pay for that kind of "assurance". i am not a pro, i can wait a few days, as long as the warranty is honest and fuss-free. if i were a pro, i would have a k20d i can continue to work with anyway (and probably some k-x as a backup to the backup). oh, wait, i do have a k20d... (no, i'm not a pro).

it's not about how much the camera is worth to you, it's about how much these "minor" annoyances are. just relax, you will get a good one and enjoy it for years. this is nothing, as long as pentax deals with it ellegantly and swiftly (let's hope they do)
12-09-2010, 02:27 PM   #28
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Thanks a bunch for the heads up, Telfish!
What a conversation you had there!

Anyway, I am presently writing something up to Pentax Canada (the "slow" Pentax) and I just came across this:
Pentax Canada - Digital Camera Support
Pay attention to the part where they mention having knowledge of a certain series of P&S cameras; not DSLR's but at least they officially admit that there is a problem in some other cam's - sensor problem.

I'll report back when I get the reply, if I ever do.

JP
12-09-2010, 02:33 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
you continue to miss the point. all stock off the shelves for even a few weeks right now means _death_. regardless of cost to actually fix the cameras. it is also pointless.

imho, this is where they should use their resellers, have them do a quick test with each camera (msot don't sell so many, anyway, or have so many in stock), support them to get "clean" stock quickly when needed. this is also were buying from a "good" shop will prove meaningful, and where the good and worthy shops should win out (and rightfully so).
You are right. Many people will not buy the K-5 until they have assurances that their cameras will be free of defects. That is why it is essential that Pentax address the problem forthrightly, so that confidence--and sales--will be restored. This is a great camera that people want to buy. It is far preferable for Pentax to take quick action, feel some short-term pain, and then carry on as though nothing ever happened. In a few short months, hopefully, this issue will seem like ancient history.

I would point out that none of us really knows the extent of the problem in terms of absolute volume. The number of K-5 units that has been produced to date may be far less than some people assume. Hence, fixing all of them may not be as big a challenge as one might think, espcecially if a third party is footing the bill. It is not inconceivable that Pentax can collect damages for lost revenues due to a supplier related defect. (Just speculating.)

Rob
12-09-2010, 02:34 PM - 1 Like   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by planedriver Quote
NaClH2O,

Fully respecting Your experience in this area..I still have some points.


Do You really think that in this world different countries exist?

(my answer is NO-there are people who can afford to buy a certain product and there are people who can't.)


Do You really think japanese companies have never thought with "European or American brain"?

(my answer is NO-as we all can see japanese cars are looking better and better-they certainly started to employ designers not from Japan.)



So why should we accept that kind of thinking? That is beyond my thinking really. It's either an international company (with international plans and interests) or..?


Andras
Of course different countries exsist! And different approaches to similar problems. I do warranty analysis on complicated machinery that has global suppliers. My Japanese vendors will rarely come out and say "yes we were wrong, this part is substandard" However they will work closely with you to implement a satisfactory solution. Personally I don't care about the public mea culpa, what I'm looking for is solutions so my fleet of subway cars stays in service. On the other side we have Western suppliers who will readily admit the mistake but then take forever in rectifying it, with layers of lawyers between you and the new part. Which solution would you prefer? A quickly designed new part/process with no admission of wrong doing or profusive apologies but no real action for weeks while the lawyers (and engineers, they work hand in hand) examine the problem from every which way? I know which one I like. Transparency is all well and good, but I care more about end result, ie a camera that "works as intended".

edit: I doubt that there is a "western" designed camera and an "oriental" designed camera. The design has no bearing on this problem. It is much more about how companies approach design flaws/manufacturing defects. If you want confirmation of my experience you have to look no further than Toyota and the whole accelerator thing.

NaCl(you could as easily say why should Pentax accept your Belief System)H2O

Last edited by NaClH2O; 12-09-2010 at 02:38 PM. Reason: added edit
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