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12-09-2010, 08:13 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I hate to say this, but after reading your mostly nonsensical rant, it appears that you are of the opinion that we should "Shoot the Victims"? No one that bought a K5 with a faulty sensor is at fault, and while you say Pentax is not at fault, I would like to see you explain that kind of twisted logic? Pentax shipped the cameras, plain and simple. When as many as half show defects, it screams of poor or non-existent QC....not of buyer fault.
I'm with Wheatfield. The problem has deep roots...

With the advent of the internet, online stores took over. The overhead of brick and mortar shops meant that the average item cost far more than it could be sold for online. Camera stores fell down, and the ones that survived stick to very safe products.

Pentax is more of a risk for most stores to carry. Who is to say that they will sell? Retail is a very tough game with a lot of losers, and the winners tend to sell a conservative selection of items. A great example would be clothing stores. Look at what 95% of clothing stores sell... and how many boutiques close down.

So we got what we wanted: prices much closer to wholesale. But EVERY manufacturer has QC issues... and it's in these sorts of circumstances that a retail outlet is the most helpful. Besides the ability to try the gear before it is bought, one can also deal directly with someone if there is a problem with the product, and receive an immediate replacement.

Through the mails, shipping becomes a factor. Still, it is a fraction of the cost of buying something from a brick and mortar (well, almost all of them). The few great camera stores I see here are all in NY, so anyone who does not live there is SOL, just like us Canadians.

We just want more more more, without realizing that there are drawbacks to these lower prices. I can understand one's frustration when they look at Nikon and Canon being sold simply everywhere, with returns being much more traditional. Canon had this same problem with their MK 1's a while back. They fixed them IN DUE TIME, just like Pentax will.

So this really isn't an unusual QC issue in my mind... it's an inevitability of mass production. Thats why it's absolutely standard, at a bare minimum, for a warranty program to be sold with a new item. If you really thought that it was uncommon for items to be released without QC issues, you could not care if a warranty was available.

The amount of complaining you hear when warranties are actually utilized is a little silly in my books... when it is more than clear that we will receive replacements in due time.

Besides, these spots aren't visible in the average photograph, so in the meantime you still have a nice camera to use.

Look at the software world... early adopters are CONSISTENTLY burned by bugs and incompatibilities. It's the world we live in. Quite comfortably, in fact. You didn't need to buy the K5 right away, you know... and I don't blame Pentax wanting to release when it did, in time for the holidays. There's no way they released with foreknowledge of this problem. It's going to cost them a lot of money.

12-09-2010, 08:17 PM   #47
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Actually, I think Pentax is handling this rather well. I don't have a K5, but I have been buying defective products since 1965: Chevy transmissions that died when in passing gear but could never get fixed; one of those Pintos with flaming gas tanks (1972) that Ford denied was a problem even while films of people bailing from flaming Pintos were being shown on TV; Firestone tires with sidewalls that burst at highway speeds causing death and destruction (while Firestone denied a problem); a Chevrolet (1978) that couldn't hold paint (it was the eruption of Mount Saint Helena that did it, said GM); to Toyotas with hidden warranties because Toyota didn't want to have a recall. This is not a Japanese cultural problem. It is corporate culture doing this, and they have been doing it for decades: deny accountability because it is cheaper than admitting a defect in a litigious environment. And Canon took 9 months to admit that their 50D sensor had a magenta caste problem before they fixed it. As one pro said in a photo mag., it made his camera useless for almost a year.

Pentax is replacing defective cameras, and quickly. And so are their authorized distributors. If I had the need for a K5 I would buy one without hesitation today, knowing that THIS corporation, unlike Ford, General Motors and others, will live up to the warranty. Also, having a local camera store which will replace such a camera immediately doesn't hurt (which makes buying from them a pleasure).

In short, I am with Wheatfield on this one.

Last edited by snofox; 12-09-2010 at 08:27 PM.
12-09-2010, 08:27 PM   #48
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As a K7 owner with a serious investment in Pentax lenses, I am pretty bummed out by this. I was planning to purchase a K5 in the new year, but now I am a bit leary. The K7 turned out to be a work in progress with the finished product being the K5. From a consumer standpoint I'm a bit pissed off that they released the K7 instead of waiting until they got it right. Now they have two flagship cameras in a row that have known serious defects. Yes, they are probably working on the next K whatever already. Even if K5 owners get a non-defective replacement eventually, they are screwed when it comes to resale value. How many of us think twice or three times before buying a used Pentax lens with SDM? We know not every lens was affected, but there is no way to tell until we have the lens and then it is too late and we wind up eating the repair cost. I'm sure there are already folks just waiting to get their hands on the defective cameras, rebox them (unfixed) as refurbs and sell them on ebay, which means there will continue to be a gray cloud hovering over what could have been a a real contender in the marketplace.
12-09-2010, 08:35 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by loveisageless Quote
... Even if K5 owners get a non-defective replacement eventually, they are screwed when it comes to resale value. How many of us think twice or three times before buying a used Pentax lens with SDM?
SDM failure is a future possibility. Sensor blobs are immediately detectable.

12-09-2010, 08:42 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by loveisageless Quote
As a K7 owner with a serious investment in Pentax lenses, I am pretty bummed out by this. I was planning to purchase a K5 in the new year, but now I am a bit leary.
Don't worry about it...

Seriously just buy the K5 somewhere you can handle/test the camera before purchasing it and you'll be fine! The contamination is quite easy to spot and not all cameras are affected so if you get a clean sensor you're good to go!

Other than the sensor issue (which is preventable now that we know about it) the K5 is an awesome camera!

Pat
12-09-2010, 09:39 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I hate to say this, but after reading your mostly nonsensical rant, it appears that you are of the opinion that we should "Shoot the Victims"? No one that bought a K5 with a faulty sensor is at fault, and while you say Pentax is not at fault, I would like to see you explain that kind of twisted logic? Pentax shipped the cameras, plain and simple. When as many as half show defects, it screams of poor or non-existent QC....not of buyer fault.
Regards!
Rupert, as it always was when you tried to have your little battles of wits with me in P&R, you have deliberately misread my post in order to make some point, I'm not sure what.
You need to turn your comprehension checker on and go read what I actually wrote, not what you would like to misinterpret what I wrote.

And before anyone tees off on me again, I'd just point out that there are now twelve (count em folks, that's 12) active threads on this single subject.
Isn't that going just a little overboard? Do we really need every single person with a problem camera posting their Rorschach test for all to see?

Last edited by Wheatfield; 12-09-2010 at 09:48 PM.
12-09-2010, 09:56 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I realize that isn't your fault directly, but it isn't Pentax's fault either.

Wheatfield, the problem is that I did read your post...thoroughly. I find where you can't fault the buyers "directly" to be absurd, and if it isn't Pentax's fault, then can you tell us who it is that is responsible for shipping out so many defective cameras?
Regards
12-09-2010, 10:06 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I find where you can't fault the buyers "directly" to be absurd,
"With the advent of the internet, online stores took over. The overhead of brick and mortar shops meant that the average item cost far more than it could be sold for online. Camera stores fell down, and the ones that survived stick to very safe products.

So we got what we wanted: prices much closer to wholesale. But EVERY manufacturer has QC issues... and it's in these sorts of circumstances that a retail outlet is the most helpful. Besides the ability to try the gear before it is bought, one can also deal directly with someone if there is a problem with the product, and receive an immediate replacement."

tl;dr,

Commerce, as a democratic force, has created this issue for the most part.

I'd like to see you argue that point.

12-09-2010, 11:00 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Wheatfield, the problem is that I did read your post...thoroughly. I find where you can't fault the buyers "directly" to be absurd, and if it isn't Pentax's fault, then can you tell us who it is that is responsible for shipping out so many defective cameras?
Regards
I see. And yes it is a problem with you taking things out of context.

Here, for your edification is the two sentences in sequence with nothing else to confuse you:

"I'm sorry that you are not fortunate enough to have a camera shop next door to handle this for you. I realize that isn't your fault directly, but it isn't Pentax's fault either."

Now, let me clarify this for you.

It is neither the fault of the person I was responding to, nor the fault of Pentax that local camera stores are hard to find, but the lack of camera stores these days falls 100% at the feet of consumers in general (hence my point about this lack not being the "direct fault" of the person I was responding to).

Those two sentences had absolutely nothing to do with Pentax shipping defective cameras, and I believe there was no associated context that would lead a person to think that there was any associated context to that end.

If you need any other help with understanding my posts, please don't hesitate to ask.
12-09-2010, 11:09 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Really, I do sympathize, but lets step back for a moment.

The reality is, every manufacturer of every type of product has the occasional manufacturing defect, and price is not part of the defect equation.

The reality is, this defect came to light initially not much more than a couple of weeks ago.

Presuming that Pentax immediately realized they had a problem on their hands (not likely), they have not had a whole lot of time to track the problem, sort out what is causing the problem, and institute a solution to the problem.

And in the meanwhile, people on this forum (and I'm sure others) are going hysterical, like as if Pentax is going to do nothing.
People wondering out loud if Pentax is going to "stiff them" on a new camera, people getting their shorts in a knot because customer service seems eerily silent on the matter, people accusing the company of ignoring the issue, etc.

Consider that a couple of weeks isn't really a very long time to research what may well be a vexing problem to track down the source of.

Now you are complaining that Pentax "cannot get their act together". Do you really think that they have had enough time to ensure that any cameras in the supply chain have been recalled? Do you really think that they've had enough time to sort out every challenge that this has put in front of them?
Do you really think that you are going to be "stiffed" on your new camera?

I'm sorry that you are not fortunate enough to have a camera shop next door to handle this for you. I realize that isn't your fault directly, but it isn't Pentax's fault either.
Consumers in general cut the legs out from under the camera store, and now the consumer is going to be inconvenienced because they felt short term gain was preferable to long term pain.

You know there is a problem, you can bet Pentax knows there is a problem, but no one can just wave a magic wand and make it go away tomorrow.
If you think that you are playing roulette, then get your RMA from whatever mail order place you bought from and wait a while before returning the camera.
More than likely, this is the best strategy.
Without wanting to disrespect anyone in particular, the people who cannot get their act's together are the handwringers. Pentax has their work cut out for them, and from the sounds of it, already has some strategies in place (including free shipping of affected units).
Really, what more can they do? I suppose the president of Hoya could fall on his sword, but that wouldn't guarantee you a faultless camera either.
Well said Wheatfield.

This is and will be my only reply in a 'stained K5' thread. I'm an early adopter, and I didn't know my K5 has stains too until a few friends asked me to check. Well, lucky us here in Singapore we live on a very small island, we don't need to buy from mail order. We can just go to our service center and repair or exchange if we are entitled to (in this case, yes). As far as I know, Hoya/Pentax is well aware of this problem by now, and I'm sure they are trying their best to find the problem source and fix it.

Complaint won't get us anywhere but self suffering. Let's hope they'd find a way to sort out the problem very soon (or maybe they already did) so the future shipped K5 (including those for exchange) won't suffer the same problem.
12-10-2010, 12:06 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stringmike Quote
They do not respond to issues the same way we do in the west. Customer satisfaction may not be as important to them as maintaining face. Shipping defective products reflects on their honor and for us to point this out may not be seen as good manners.
+100. Right.
12-10-2010, 02:33 AM   #57
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Excuse me, but I don't understand what does "online stores vs local brick and mortar shops" have to do with manufacturer QA.
In fact I bought my K-5 in a local brick and mortar shop. So how does that help me? Nohow! I paid higher price and get inferior customer support. Buying from online stores not only means usually lower prices, but also means more rights as a consumer (e.g. much longer time period for returns with no questions asked), thus better customer support.
I fail to see how the form of purchase (onlive vs local) could affect manufacturing quality and QA. It's Hoya/Pentax who sets the price and decides the level of QA in its factory. And detecting this kind of issues doesn't really depend on money, it's one of those things which need investing $1 in money and just more care and strict manufacturing discipline.
12-10-2010, 05:06 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by simico Quote
Excuse me, but I don't understand what does "online stores vs local brick and mortar shops" have to do with manufacturer QA.
No one has equated on with being responsible for the other.
12-10-2010, 05:45 AM   #59
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I would just ask for a little calmness in the forum. Maybe I am naive, but I believe that Pentax will take care of the people who have have sensor issues. It is just difficulty for a company with a presence in so many countries to formulate a plan to address the situation, in particular if they aren't certain how much stock in stores right now is really effected.

Hopefully they are testing cameras being produced now, for this defect and finding out where in the manufacturing process it is occurring. Still, there is a lot of stock out there right now and it will be awhile before the situation is truly "under control."

If Pentax doesn't take care of the situation, then will be the time to get angry.
12-10-2010, 05:52 AM   #60
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Rondec +1 , I am so feed up about emotional response and attack and conterattack who have nothing to do with the OP initial thread
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