How to make full use of DR?

shang · 12-15-2010, 03:22 PM

hi guys,

my question is what the best way is to make full use of K-5's wonderful DR?

At least now, my understanding is that if I just shoot straight JPG, then I cannot notice any difference from the K-7, am I right?

thanks for any input!

**ManuH** · 12-15-2010, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by shang

hi guys,

my question is what the best way is to make full use of K-5's wonderful DR?

At least now, my understanding is that if I just shoot straight JPG, then I cannot notice any difference from the K-7, am I right?

You can also see the DR difference in JPEG. The best way to make full use of the DR is to shoot raw and underexpose to avoid blowing highlights. Now if you shoot JPEG you can also use the highlight correction feature. In any case the shadows will be cleaner and more detailed on the K-5

For JPEG shooters they can also use the HDR with auto alignment for difficult scenes.

Thesorus · 12-15-2010, 04:50 PM

IMO, The best way to take advantage of it is to shoot with the best possible exposure.

**jbinpg** · 12-15-2010, 05:22 PM

If I understand Falk Lumo and Gordon B. Good accurately, the full 14.2 stop DR of the K-5 will only be realized if shooting at ISO80. The higher the ISO, the lower the potential DR. This is a function of digital sensors and affects all sensors by all camera manufacturers the same way. Same with bit depth, the full benefit of 14-bit images will only be found at lower ISOs.

Jack

Smeggypants · 12-15-2010, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by jbinpg

If I understand Falk Lumo and Gordon B. Good accurately, the full 14.2 stop DR of the K-5 will only be realized if shooting at ISO80. The higher the ISO, the lower the potential DR. This is a function of digital sensors and affects all sensors by all camera manufacturers the same way. Same with bit depth, the full benefit of 14-bit images will only be found at lower ISOs.

Jack

That's correct, but the extra dynamic range is available across the board. i.e you will get more dynamic range at, say ISO1000 with a K-5 than you will at ISO1000 with a K-20/K-7

Smeggypants · 12-15-2010, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Thesorus

IMO, The best way to take advantage of it is to shoot with the best possible exposure.

Exactly!!

sir_bazz · 12-15-2010, 07:47 PM

Most important is not to blow the highlights and then recover the shadows in post.

Shooting RAW and adjusting fill light in your RAW converter is a good easy way to reveal shadow detail.

That's as far as I've gotten so far.

bazz.

pentup · 12-15-2010, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by ManuH

Now if you shoot JPEG you can also use the highlight correction feature.

I don't know if this applies to the K-5, but with the K-7, I've read elsewhere on this forum (I think) that highlight correction applies to RAW as well (but shadow correction does not). The manual is not clear on the point.

I wish I knew how to avoid either blowing highlights or increasing noise in the shadows by underexposing, on the other. I find it very hard with the K-7. I try to err on on the side of under-exposure, since noise bothers me less than blown highlights.

kittykat46 · 12-15-2010, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by sir_bazz

Most important is not to blow the highlights and then recover the shadows in post.

Shooting RAW and adjusting fill light in your RAW converter is a good easy way to reveal shadow detail.

That's as far as I've gotten so far.

bazz.

The nice thing about the K-5 is it also has a generous amount of headroom at the highlight end, but less than in the shadows.
I've managed to recover easily 1-2 stops of detail from apparently blown out areas in RAW files. A bit difficult to recover the original colours though, but a bit more detailed PP work may do the trick.

WerTicus · 12-15-2010, 09:21 PM

the DR is in the shadows, not the highlights, so shooting to not blow the highlights is how to get the dynamic range. This might not be 'perfectly' exposed for very high contrast scenes.

Oh and shoot raw of course :P

m8o · 12-15-2010, 11:49 PM

Like everyone said ... DR is best "seen" [made use of] if you shoot ISO80, greatly underexpose most of the frame so as not to blow-out lights/high-lights, shoot RAW, and apply a lot of tone-curve adjustment in the lower 1/2 or 1/3 of the histogram, adjust black-level & contrast level to compensate, lather, rinse, complete

...
My earlier thread 'bout it: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/124082-iso-80-permits-ma...fill-post.html

Ishpuini · 12-16-2010, 01:47 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by kittykat46

The nice thing about the K-5 is it also has a generous amount of headroom at the highlight end, but less than in the shadows.
I've managed to recover easily 1-2 stops of detail from apparently blown out areas in RAW files. A bit difficult to recover the original colours though, but a bit more detailed PP work may do the trick.

The apparent headroom is because the camera shows the blown highlights based on the JPG conversion it does for the embedded JPG it includes in the RAW. What you see on the LCD is not the RAW, it's that embedded JPG.

How to correctly interpret what you see on the LCD to what you can expect in the RAW, depends on the JPG settings your camera is set to. Long ago on the *istDS some users at the other forum did some tests to determine the JPG and WB settings that would result in a JPG that would have a histogram approximating the RAW histogram as much as possible.

A similar excercise on the K-5 would help produce an in-camera histogram that can be used to nail exposure to maximize DR...

Note that not only the luminance histogram should be taken into account, but also the histograms for the individual colour channels. Sometimes only one channel is blown out, so some detail can be recovered, but the original colour will be lost.

Wim

**dadipentak** · 12-16-2010, 06:33 AM

Helpful thread here--thumbs up all around.

**ManuH** · 12-16-2010, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by pentup

I don't know if this applies to the K-5, but with the K-7, I've read elsewhere on this forum (I think) that highlight correction applies to RAW as well (but shadow correction does not).

That's correct but in raw you can also do it yourself and underexpose as much as is possible. Raw shooters will prefer to have full control on the imaging pipeline. JPEG shooters usually want results out of the box (not a critic, just an observation) and highlight correction is a quick way to gain more visible DR. The K-5 JPEG engine is quite customizable and you can get great results without necessarily using raw all the time.

nanok · 12-16-2010, 08:06 AM

the only way is by using something like enfuse, or openexr, and/or tonemapping. the question is incomplete: use the dr for what? for displaying on the screen? for printing? for storing? etc. a jpeg, straight from the raw (without blending or tonemapping) will _not_ contain the whole dinamic range, regardless what iso you shoot at, or how well you exposed (hint: 8bits is still 8 bits, and definitely not 14).

it is possible that the k-5 jpeg engine does some tricks internally to extract and "compress" some more of the dr into the jpeg, but i haven't yet tested that thoroughly (it was just a first impression).

the dr just is, btw. it cannot be in the shadows or in the highlights. the fact that the meter of the camera is biased to overexpose is arbitrary. the dr is wherever you put it.

so no, it's not as easy as "it's just there". i posted a thread about this more than a month ago, btw

(raw processing needs to change, perhaps, in concept, method, and gui)

12-15-2010, 03:22 PM	#1
shang Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: long island Posts: 135	How to make full use of DR? hi guys, my question is what the best way is to make full use of K-5's wonderful DR? At least now, my understanding is that if I just shoot straight JPG, then I cannot notice any difference from the K-7, am I right? thanks for any input!

12-16-2010, 01:47 AM - 1 Like	#12
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	Originally posted by kittykat46 The nice thing about the K-5 is it also has a generous amount of headroom at the highlight end, but less than in the shadows. I've managed to recover easily 1-2 stops of detail from apparently blown out areas in RAW files. A bit difficult to recover the original colours though, but a bit more detailed PP work may do the trick. The apparent headroom is because the camera shows the blown highlights based on the JPG conversion it does for the embedded JPG it includes in the RAW. What you see on the LCD is not the RAW, it's that embedded JPG. How to correctly interpret what you see on the LCD to what you can expect in the RAW, depends on the JPG settings your camera is set to. Long ago on the istDS some users at the other forum did some tests to determine the JPG and WB settings that would result in a JPG that would have a histogram approximating the RAW histogram as much as possible. A similar excercise on the K-5 would help produce an in-camera histogram that can be used to nail exposure to maximize DR... Note that not only the luminance histogram should be taken into account, but also the histograms for the individual colour channels. Sometimes only one channel is blown out, so some detail can be recovered, but the original colour will be lost. Wim Last edited by Ishpuini; 12-16-2010 at 01:54 AM.*

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12-15-2010, 04:43 PM	#2
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by shang hi guys, my question is what the best way is to make full use of K-5's wonderful DR? At least now, my understanding is that if I just shoot straight JPG, then I cannot notice any difference from the K-7, am I right? You can also see the DR difference in JPEG. The best way to make full use of the DR is to shoot raw and underexpose to avoid blowing highlights. Now if you shoot JPEG you can also use the highlight correction feature. In any case the shadows will be cleaner and more detailed on the K-5 For JPEG shooters they can also use the HDR with auto alignment for difficult scenes.

12-15-2010, 04:50 PM	#3
Thesorus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal (Canada) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 200	IMO, The best way to take advantage of it is to shoot with the best possible exposure.

12-15-2010, 05:22 PM	#4
jbinpg Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Prince George, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,546	If I understand Falk Lumo and Gordon B. Good accurately, the full 14.2 stop DR of the K-5 will only be realized if shooting at ISO80. The higher the ISO, the lower the potential DR. This is a function of digital sensors and affects all sensors by all camera manufacturers the same way. Same with bit depth, the full benefit of 14-bit images will only be found at lower ISOs. Jack

12-15-2010, 06:51 PM	#5
Smeggypants Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,536	Originally posted by jbinpg If I understand Falk Lumo and Gordon B. Good accurately, the full 14.2 stop DR of the K-5 will only be realized if shooting at ISO80. The higher the ISO, the lower the potential DR. This is a function of digital sensors and affects all sensors by all camera manufacturers the same way. Same with bit depth, the full benefit of 14-bit images will only be found at lower ISOs. Jack That's correct, but the extra dynamic range is available across the board. i.e you will get more dynamic range at, say ISO1000 with a K-5 than you will at ISO1000 with a K-20/K-7

12-15-2010, 06:52 PM	#6
Smeggypants Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,536	Originally posted by Thesorus IMO, The best way to take advantage of it is to shoot with the best possible exposure. Exactly!!

12-15-2010, 07:47 PM	#7
sir_bazz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 184	Most important is not to blow the highlights and then recover the shadows in post. Shooting RAW and adjusting fill light in your RAW converter is a good easy way to reveal shadow detail. That's as far as I've gotten so far. bazz.

12-15-2010, 08:06 PM	#8
pentup Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Flushing NY Photos: Albums Posts: 413	Originally posted by ManuH Now if you shoot JPEG you can also use the highlight correction feature. I don't know if this applies to the K-5, but with the K-7, I've read elsewhere on this forum (I think) that highlight correction applies to RAW as well (but shadow correction does not). The manual is not clear on the point. I wish I knew how to avoid either blowing highlights or increasing noise in the shadows by underexposing, on the other. I find it very hard with the K-7. I try to err on on the side of under-exposure, since noise bothers me less than blown highlights.

12-15-2010, 08:36 PM	#9
kittykat46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 923	Originally posted by sir_bazz Most important is not to blow the highlights and then recover the shadows in post. Shooting RAW and adjusting fill light in your RAW converter is a good easy way to reveal shadow detail. That's as far as I've gotten so far. bazz. The nice thing about the K-5 is it also has a generous amount of headroom at the highlight end, but less than in the shadows. I've managed to recover easily 1-2 stops of detail from apparently blown out areas in RAW files. A bit difficult to recover the original colours though, but a bit more detailed PP work may do the trick.

12-15-2010, 09:21 PM	#10
WerTicus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Perth Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,514	the DR is in the shadows, not the highlights, so shooting to not blow the highlights is how to get the dynamic range. This might not be 'perfectly' exposed for very high contrast scenes. Oh and shoot raw of course :P

12-15-2010, 11:49 PM	#11
m8o Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: 40°-55'-44" N / 73°-24'-07" W [on LI] Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,092	Like everyone said ... DR is best "seen" [made use of] if you shoot ISO80, greatly underexpose most of the frame so as not to blow-out lights/high-lights, shoot RAW, and apply a lot of tone-curve adjustment in the lower 1/2 or 1/3 of the histogram, adjust black-level & contrast level to compensate, lather, rinse, complete ... My earlier thread 'bout it: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/124082-iso-80-permits-ma...fill-post.html

12-16-2010, 06:33 AM	#13
dadipentak Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,590	Helpful thread here--thumbs up all around.

12-16-2010, 07:13 AM	#14
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by pentup I don't know if this applies to the K-5, but with the K-7, I've read elsewhere on this forum (I think) that highlight correction applies to RAW as well (but shadow correction does not). That's correct but in raw you can also do it yourself and underexpose as much as is possible. Raw shooters will prefer to have full control on the imaging pipeline. JPEG shooters usually want results out of the box (not a critic, just an observation) and highlight correction is a quick way to gain more visible DR. The K-5 JPEG engine is quite customizable and you can get great results without necessarily using raw all the time.

12-16-2010, 08:06 AM	#15
nanok Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 969	the only way is by using something like enfuse, or openexr, and/or tonemapping. the question is incomplete: use the dr for what? for displaying on the screen? for printing? for storing? etc. a jpeg, straight from the raw (without blending or tonemapping) will _not_ contain the whole dinamic range, regardless what iso you shoot at, or how well you exposed (hint: 8bits is still 8 bits, and definitely not 14). it is possible that the k-5 jpeg engine does some tricks internally to extract and "compress" some more of the dr into the jpeg, but i haven't yet tested that thoroughly (it was just a first impression). the dr just is, btw. it cannot be in the shadows or in the highlights. the fact that the meter of the camera is biased to overexpose is arbitrary. the dr is wherever you put it. so no, it's not as easy as "it's just there". i posted a thread about this more than a month ago, btw (raw processing needs to change, perhaps, in concept, method, and gui)