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12-19-2010, 06:16 AM   #16
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I agree - Wheatfield's response is way out of line.

He also forgets that a lot of people don't get a "warranty". In many cases you buy an item online and the vendor washes his hands of it the moment it goes out of the door. Only pukka Pentax dealers have Pentax factory/importer backup for issues like these sensor spots, and get do "new for used" replacements. Many online dealers don't offer this; you send this $1500 thing back and then sit and wait, send emails (no replies) and sit and wait and sit and wait. That's the reality of a large chunk of the retail business, which is why we expect good QA at the manufacturer!

12-19-2010, 06:40 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by peterh337 Quote
I agree - Wheatfield's response is way out of line.

He also forgets that a lot of people don't get a "warranty". In many cases you buy an item online and the vendor washes his hands of it the moment it goes out of the door. Only pukka Pentax dealers have Pentax factory/importer backup for issues like these sensor spots, and get do "new for used" replacements. Many online dealers don't offer this; you send this $1500 thing back and then sit and wait, send emails (no replies) and sit and wait and sit and wait. That's the reality of a large chunk of the retail business, which is why we expect good QA at the manufacturer!
If you don't get a warranty on a new product, you've bought from the wrong vendor. Don't look at your camera as a $1500.00 "thing", look at it as a $1800.00 "thing" that you got a deal on by not paying for 100% QC.

And yes, I blame it on consumers. Consumers have been at war with manufacturers and retailers since the 1950s.
Make it cheaper, sell it cheaper or we won't buy it has been the story of the day for the last 50 years.
Camera stores went out of business because mail order warehouses with relatively low overhead could sell masses of camera for a few dollars less, so people opted to spend a few dollars less.
And they lost their one direct contact with the manufacturer if there was a problem.
Not that we felt that was enough. In the quest for getting the most we could for the very least, we refuse to buy products until the manufacturer has discounted the price to barely above cost. We mock the people who pay full price at introduction as "early adopters", like as it they are some kind of idiot for not waiting 6 months for the price to come down 25%.
So, the consumer put the camera store out of business, and with their buying habits are pressuring manufacturers into the same situation.
How many complaints have there been on this forum surrounding the price of the K5?
How many comparisons have there been between the cost of it vs the Nikon D7000, with the complainers always pointing out that the Nikon is fifty or a hundred bucks less.
They don't care that Nikon will sell a hundred or more cameras for every one that Pentax sells, they don't seem to understand that the only way to recover R&D costs these days is to sell bagloads of cameras cheap because the consumer isn't willing to let anyone make a profit.
Pentax isn't going to sell bagloads of cameras, the K5 could be priced at 750.00 and people would still complain that it's expensive, and people would still wait for the price to go down further, and they would still buy 100 Nikons for every K5.
I worked in camera stores during the 80s and 90s. I watched our livelyhood cut out from under us by customers who would go to a warehouse to save ten bucks.
They wanted our expertise after the fact because all they got from the warehouse was a box, but they weren't willing to pay us for that knowledge.
And camera store after camera store went down because keeping a small store open in the face of competing with a big mail order warehouse that provides nothing for service isn't viable when people won't support local stores and local people when they can save a couple of dollars.
Enjoy your mail order hell, and enjoy your cameras that have a few defects due to little or no QC.
You've bought into this model, and as consumers you've created it.
Now live with it.
12-19-2010, 07:03 AM   #18
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Shocking, indeed; and perhaps excessively harsh. But there is truth in his words, IMO.
I would be willing to pay extra for better QC and "perfect" calibration; unfortunately, I'm not given that option. But how many others would to the same?
Instead, I'm hearing all the time, "I won't pay that much for a K-5, it should be xxxeuro instead". I'm hearing about people who spend hours in camera shops just to choose a good sample of some Tamron zoom. And let's not start with asking more and more features, with no price increase of course.

The warranty is how we are protected - from buying defective products. No one is expecting camera makers to make 100% reliable products, but to repair/exchange the defective ones. If one is buying without a warranty, well...
12-19-2010, 08:12 AM   #19
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Well I also have a problem and this is the first Pentax camera out of 6 I have owned that needs to be replaced. Thats what you get when you get cheaper labor to build your products. GREED is the problem with the economy. We used to take pride in our work, now we just go to work to survive. But in 2 years and 2 days no one will have to worry anymore.

12-19-2010, 08:55 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by pxpaulx Quote
electronic displays do tend to operate more slowly in the cold - it is possible that in your haste to make the dial turns (and background with having a finnicky dial from the start), that you were skipping past the other apertures while the LCD could not keep up with the changes. With the cold added to the equation, it sounds as though both your frustration, the partially functioning dial and cold weather combined to make the situation worse. Hopefully the replacement arrives quickly!
I have a K10D and a KM and live in a very cold climate. Neither camera responds, in the wintry outdoors as you indicate...ie: electronic display operating more slowly..".
12-19-2010, 09:01 AM   #21
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QuoteQuote:
No one is expecting camera makers to make 100% reliable products
True; that's impossible to achieve.

What is not impossible to achieve, especially on a $1000+ product, is a 100% functional check before it goes out of the door.

I've been in electronic manufacturing for 32 years. We 100% test everything, and our cheapest products are $35. It's not hard.

Production will never be 100% perfect which is why one has inspection. Normally the Japanese (and the Chinese) are exceedingly good at doing that. Something clearly went wrong with the K5 inspection process.
12-19-2010, 09:08 AM   #22
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Wheatfield

exactly... while it is not nice to get a camera with a defect, this is what the warranty is for.

All conusmer products suffer from only a % of them being perfect, with some issues down to "tolerance" levels... typically more you pay more you would expect for this be minimized, but it is still the case whether you buy a K-5 or Canon 1DIII camera... or some other model.

Two points there:
1. That is why you have warranty (and just blame yourself if you did not get it, as it should be a year - everywhere, while in some places in EU it is 2 years)
2. If you have a dealer nearby with a store (and nearby may be 50miles), IMO it is worth taking an afternoon off to get a model that you can test in person before you buy, so that you minimize any ill effects. And naturally make a list of what to look for with the model you are buying as the interenet empowers you to do that. Alternatively buy from Amazon/some other reputable online retailer which allows you to return the goods, only if you do not like it... in a set period of time, ideally two weeks or more... no matter what

Otherwise it is the buyer "lottery" ... apparently it is not very risky, as in the latest Consumer Report survey in US only about 4% of Pentax cameras were faulty (btw best for last year, but they were all thereabout... worst was Nikon @ 6% IIRC, for this year K-5 stains will for sure make Pentax average worse)...

Assuming a good year - 1/25... maybe you, maybe not... but if you have a store nearby I think it is wort taking time off for a product that you will use for next `1-2 years or more, to make sure it is good out of the box... definitely beats sending it back in for repair and wandering if it will be repaired correctly... once you have the camera and if the issue is more "esoteric" like bad focus under certain light, it may not even come back good from repair... even though for the issues reported in OP, the repair looks pretty straight forward, and this is what should be done.
12-19-2010, 09:47 AM   #23
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Spot on Wheatfield! It's not just cameras, and the consequences are not confined to the products one has/is stuck with. instead of a lot of people, many of whom know something about what they sell and are interested in it, working in shops that line main streets, you get the bleak hollowed-out ghost towns and small cities with their shuttered store fronts, and armies of people manning phones or computer consoles in light-less boxes in the middle of nowhere.

12-19-2010, 03:02 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
If you don't get a warranty on a new product, you've bought from the wrong vendor. Don't look at your camera as a $1500.00 "thing", look at it as a $1800.00 "thing" that you got a deal on by not paying for 100% QC.

And yes, I blame it on consumers. Consumers have been at war with manufacturers and retailers since the 1950s.
Make it cheaper, sell it cheaper or we won't buy it has been the story of the day for the last 50 years.
Camera stores went out of business because mail order warehouses with relatively low overhead could sell masses of camera for a few dollars less, so people opted to spend a few dollars less.
And they lost their one direct contact with the manufacturer if there was a problem.
Not that we felt that was enough. In the quest for getting the most we could for the very least, we refuse to buy products until the manufacturer has discounted the price to barely above cost. We mock the people who pay full price at introduction as "early adopters", like as it they are some kind of idiot for not waiting 6 months for the price to come down 25%.
So, the consumer put the camera store out of business, and with their buying habits are pressuring manufacturers into the same situation.
How many complaints have there been on this forum surrounding the price of the K5?
How many comparisons have there been between the cost of it vs the Nikon D7000, with the complainers always pointing out that the Nikon is fifty or a hundred bucks less.
They don't care that Nikon will sell a hundred or more cameras for every one that Pentax sells, they don't seem to understand that the only way to recover R&D costs these days is to sell bagloads of cameras cheap because the consumer isn't willing to let anyone make a profit.
Pentax isn't going to sell bagloads of cameras, the K5 could be priced at 750.00 and people would still complain that it's expensive, and people would still wait for the price to go down further, and they would still buy 100 Nikons for every K5.
I worked in camera stores during the 80s and 90s. I watched our livelyhood cut out from under us by customers who would go to a warehouse to save ten bucks.
They wanted our expertise after the fact because all they got from the warehouse was a box, but they weren't willing to pay us for that knowledge.
And camera store after camera store went down because keeping a small store open in the face of competing with a big mail order warehouse that provides nothing for service isn't viable when people won't support local stores and local people when they can save a couple of dollars.
Enjoy your mail order hell, and enjoy your cameras that have a few defects due to little or no QC.
You've bought into this model, and as consumers you've created it.
Now live with it.

crikey mate your starting to sound like some bitter old geezer!!

the OP was here just saying that he's got a problem with his new body....and that Pentax QC may be south of where it should be, { stained sensors anyone !!}

then you rip into him saying its his\our fault as consumers just cause you worked in a shop that went tits up!!...for farks sake mate..ease up old son..

where I live , we have plenty of camera shops...and that vast majority of people still go to a shop to buy their gear..so online aint for all..so don't get all polarized on that view will ya..the world aint the same all over..

how about its the manufactures fault..they wanna sell more of their product...so they out source it to some dodgy third world country that has no minimum wage to worry about or unions...just so they can compete with the others that have already done it ,

they want sell more of their products to consumers that hum and har over if they want to spend $2000 on a body...but will spunk up the $1500 for one... that's moving the product..and cause their operating costs are down their profit is increased...

but as a side order the QC goes to shit as the foreman in charge of that area don't give a shit cause hes on $1.30 per hr and gets a small bonus if he ships more product , rather than sending them back to production...he ships them so he can get his kids dinner that night....

that i think is the real world.. company's are profit driven and will go to most any lengths to produce more profit ..we the consumers have to fess up...we are now getting cheaper prices..but at the expense of QC....not our fault...but that is the poxy world we now live in.

mind you Hassleblad still do ok !!..lol

Last edited by Tommot1965; 12-19-2010 at 04:35 PM.
12-19-2010, 04:27 PM   #25
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Some K5/K7 wheels (front or back) do have this problem. It's a very easy quick fix. Just keep turning the wheel back and forth for a few minutes, the problem will be gone
12-19-2010, 04:44 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by frank Quote
Some K5/K7 wheels (front or back) do have this problem. It's a very easy quick fix. Just keep turning the wheel back and forth for a few minutes, the problem will be gone
+1 on this.
I had a somewhat similar issue with my K10D years back but some vigorous turning of the dial cleared up the unresponsive dial. Unfortunately whether it is a bit of dirt, oxidation or poor connection I'll never know, but it worked out for me.
12-19-2010, 05:32 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
crikey mate your starting to sound like some bitter old geezer!!

the OP was here just saying that he's got a problem with his new body....and that Pentax QC may be south of where it should be, { stained sensors anyone !!}

then you rip into him saying its his\our fault as consumers just cause you worked in a shop that went tits up!!...for farks sake mate..ease up old son..

where I live , we have plenty of camera shops...and that vast majority of people still go to a shop to buy their gear..so online aint for all..so don't get all polarized on that view will ya..the world aint the same all over..

how about its the manufactures fault..they wanna sell more of their product...so they out source it to some dodgy third world country that has no minimum wage to worry about or unions...just so they can compete with the others that have already done it ,

they want sell more of their products to consumers that hum and har over if they want to spend $2000 on a body...but will spunk up the $1500 for one... that's moving the product..and cause their operating costs are down their profit is increased...

but as a side order the QC goes to shit as the foreman in charge of that area don't give a shit cause hes on $1.30 per hr and gets a small bonus if he ships more product , rather than sending them back to production...he ships them so he can get his kids dinner that night....

that i think is the real world.. company's are profit driven and will go to most any lengths to produce more profit ..we the consumers have to fess up...we are now getting cheaper prices..but at the expense of QC....not our fault...but that is the poxy world we now live in.

mind you Hassleblad still do ok !!..lol
Hassy has been doing really well since they pretty much got taken over by Fuji.....


Anyway, this is about the 20th thread, every time it's the same thing. Someone figures out some way to make their camera have a problem, and all of a sudden the sky is falling, Pentax is shooting themselves in the foot, their QC sucks, moan, moan moan.
And I snapped.

Having said that, I still stand behind what I posted. I'm also fortunate enough to have a local and very good camera store. Most people aren't. Your situation with having several close by is the exception, not the rule.

It's no secret that Hoya is squeezing Pentax for everything they can, if there are QC issues over and above what would be considered normal, the best thing people can do is quietly send their cameras back for warranty repairs or exchange.
This will make Hoya stand up and pay attention a lot faster than the continuous barrage of threads we've seen over the past few weeks.
12-19-2010, 05:53 PM   #28
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Warranty repairs are expensive. All manufactures look at these costs and if there is a way to improve they will. However I think Pentax was rushed to get these into market before X-mas, in my mind the firmware update proves this.

However I think that getting them to market is far better than missing the boat entirely.
12-19-2010, 05:54 PM   #29
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Is anyone else really enjoying Wheatfield's personal crusade against the "stainers"? I am. Dude, you are persistent, mostly correct, and hilarious. Keep fighting the good fight.

I tend to agree with much of what you say, but.... for a $1500 camera, this is pretty crappy QC. Then again, Mercedes is notorious for poor quality/breakdowns, and look how much they cost!
12-19-2010, 06:55 PM   #30
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Well, I'm sorry about the OP's cam. Depriving one of a creative outlook at Christmas time is never a good thing...

I'm still hung up about the length of the warranty period from the manufacturer. I't not clear to me why lenses can have a longer warranty than something that can potentially cost 3 times as much.

Don't get me started about Quality (my business). It is not just this industry (photographic/consumer goods). I lost my job this year to help fund shareholder return. My industry, pharmaceuticals......
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