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12-28-2010, 06:53 PM   #16
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Doesn't the manual say that the shake-reduction system should be turned off when the camera is mounted on a tripod?

12-28-2010, 06:55 PM   #17
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First of all... I always though one has to turn the SR off when shooting from a tripod...

Second... Everybody who owns a K5, let's do a little experiment... Attach a relatively light lens to the camera (something DA40-ish).... Set the camera to CONTINIOUS-HIGH, set the focus to M, set the exposure mode to M, set the shutter speed to 1/8000th, set the aperture to whatever... and fire the damn sucker!!!! FEEL HOW IT VIBRATES!!!

Here's a small reality check for these who don't care to know anything in this life besides what's written in the "Uncle Bob's handy guide to K5": It's simple physics, for every action there's a reaction! Mirror slaps up/down, camera counter-reacts... lighter the camera, more there's reaction... As far as I remember, K100s was shaking like a rattlesnake when taking a shot.... K5, in comparison, is smooth and steady... under normal shooting conditions... Longer the exposure, more you can see the effect of unwanted vibrations...

If you want a sharp shot at long exposure on a tripod, do everybody a favor, use the MUP+remote... and stop running around in circles screaming about "troubles" when the only trouble there is to it - your own ignorance....

Simple... really... even D3X owners use MUP for shots that turnout the sharpest with MUP... damn...
12-28-2010, 06:58 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
The problem began showing up in normal use, hand-held. I then found that the soft/blurry images were all taken at slower shutter speeds, but nothing that wasn't perfectly acceptable with my K100D Super.

I put it on a tripod to eliminate me being shaky (the excitement of a new toy) and to go through a more systematic and repeatable test scenario. The issue didn't just appear after I put it on my tripod.

I have a Manfrotto190XBD with a Manfrotto 322RC2 pistol grip ball head. This combo has served me well in the past with my K100D Super. Only change is the camera body.
Looks like a 1/30 to 1/125 or thereabouts are unhappy.
I had a Super Program that was virtually unusable in this speed range because of bounciness.
My K5 looks pretty bouncy in the same range as is bothering you.
I just checked some bracketed shots I did today, around 1/15 second is definitely showing excessive camera shake.
This is with the camera on a Feisol Tournament tripod with a Feisol CB-50D ballhead.
I suspect what we are seeing is a little exaggerated by the high resolution of the sensor, but there is no denying that we both have a camera that rings at 1/15 second - 1/30 second.
12-28-2010, 08:02 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by alexeyga Quote
If you want a sharp shot at long exposure on a tripod, do everybody a favor, use the MUP+remote... and stop running around in circles screaming about "troubles" when the only trouble there is to it - your own ignorance....
Ah, where to begin? Let's see.... the center column of the example photos is labeled 'SR Off' and it actually has more shake than the.... oh heck, I have better things to do than correct someone with no reading comprehension. If people like this spent as much time doing something constructive instead of ignorantly spouting attacks and insults, the world would be a better place.

Interesting to see that some people share this issue with Al. I wonder if it is constant and some don't notice it, or if it is individual units that have it more than others, or individual shooters who do something that accentuates it?

And as someone has already pointed out, if tripod, MLU, 2 second delay, and remote release is the best answer at 1/60, something is wrong with the camera.


Last edited by dandaniel; 12-28-2010 at 10:24 PM.
12-28-2010, 08:37 PM   #20
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I think the OP is a nice demonstration that the K-5 shutter blur is a subpixel thing now, i.e. not normally noticeable.

Without the 2s timer, we see tripod vibration from the mirror slap. And SR can even help to reduce it a bit

And I have no doubt that images can be soft at long focal lengths and long shutter speeds. The OP please keep in mind that the pixels are much smaller than with a K100.

The thread title is misleading. The OP please take the fact into account that the 2s timer doesn't delay exposure from the shutter.
12-28-2010, 08:52 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I think the OP is a nice demonstration that the K-5 shutter blur is a subpixel thing now, i.e. not normally noticeable.

Without the 2s timer, we see tripod vibration from the mirror slap. And SR can even help to reduce it a bit

And I have no doubt that images can be soft at long focal lengths and long shutter speeds. The OP please keep in mind that the pixels are much smaller than with a K100.

The thread title is misleading. The OP please take the fact into account that the 2s timer doesn't delay exposure from the shutter.
The reason I put it on the tripod and did a series of test shots was that I was seeing soft/blurry shots in normal use, whereas I never had that issue with my K100DS. I wasn't looking for a problem, it found me. I was dismayed that many of the shots, even after being processed and reduced for web viewing weren't as crisp as I was used to. Only then did I notice a pattern to shutter speed and decided to run a few tests to confirm my suspicions.

Believe me when I say that I wanted nothing more than to be blown away by the images.

I had a conversation with Pentax after I posted this and, after a long discussion, they believed that it was a problem with the camera and that I should exchange it or send it in for service. They told me that I wasn't the only person to call and report the issue.
12-28-2010, 08:54 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
If you guys are suggesting that the K5 requires mirror lock up and a heavy tripod to match the abilities of the K100D hand held
Rupert, AFAIK, the manual says not to use SR while on a tripod, and it may be that there is more mirror shake on the K5 than the K100D so that tripod/head combo isn't enough.

It's pretty easy to test though...switch out the tripod/head w/ a heavier one. If the results are better, then our guess is correct. If not, then the camera is broken and should be returned.

p.s., please post back when you get the replacement...curious if it works better than the old one...
12-28-2010, 08:58 PM   #23
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To the OP

gee you learn something every day on this forum....the K5 is sure showing some bad habits early in its life, lets hope mum will sort the naughty child out.....I wonder if the new firmware has anything to do with it..the increase in FPS , although at 1/15..i doubt it.

Falk has done a shutter blur test with his K5, and reported all was good compared with the K7... maybe he can chime in with some ideas,..dunno what firmware he was using though

you have taken some effort to do those shots..and now I will use MLU when doing tripod long exposure type stuff...cheers

12-28-2010, 09:00 PM   #24
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I see falk already has [ chimed in]..onya falk...nice to have you as a pentax user mate...its good to have a resident Scientist to refer all the tech talk about pixels too...nice one
12-28-2010, 09:11 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Rupert, AFAIK, the manual says not to use SR while on a tripod, and it may be that there is more mirror shake on the K5 than the K100D so that tripod/head combo isn't enough.

It's pretty easy to test though...switch out the tripod/head w/ a heavier one. If the results are better, then our guess is correct. If not, then the camera is broken and should be returned.

p.s., please post back when you get the replacement...curious if it works better than the old one...
I only mounted the camera on the tripod in order to verify something that became evident when shooting hand held. Had I posted a series of hand-held shots everyone would be telling mo to repeat the test on a tripod
12-28-2010, 09:16 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
To the OP

gee you learn something every day on this forum....the K5 is sure showing some bad habits early in its life, lets hope mum will sort the naughty child out.....I wonder if the new firmware has anything to do with it..the increase in FPS , although at 1/15..i doubt it.

Falk has done a shutter blur test with his K5, and reported all was good compared with the K7... maybe he can chime in with some ideas,..dunno what firmware he was using though

you have taken some effort to do those shots..and now I will use MLU when doing tripod long exposure type stuff...cheers
If this issue had occurred while operating the camera as a machine gun I never would have brought up the issue It did surface while using the camera to shoot the same types of shots that I routinely took with my K100DS; same camera mode (Av) and same range of shutter speeds. That is what got my attention. My keeper rate was less than with the K100KS. Only then did I begin to do some more controlled tests.

I originally suspected the shutter blur issue, but after I tried with the 2-second delay, it pointed more toward mirror slap that effects both hand-held and tripod mounted shots.
12-28-2010, 09:53 PM   #27
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The K100D is a 6MP camera so it has 1/3 the number of photosites of the K-5. If you are looking at 100% crops from both you are looking at very different images. Are you comparing them at the same output size?
12-28-2010, 09:59 PM   #28
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dunno if the MP matters in this case...as the OP is noticing blurred shoots without pixel peeping...or am i missing something ?
12-28-2010, 10:01 PM   #29
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It would be interesting to know what serial/batch number your K-5 has (whether it is an early production model or not).
12-29-2010, 02:24 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote

I was dismayed that many of the shots, even after being processed and reduced for web viewing weren't as crisp as I was used to.

Believe me when I say that I wanted nothing more than to be blown away by the images.

I had a conversation with Pentax after I posted this and, after a long discussion, they believed that it was a problem with the camera and that I should exchange it or send it in for service. They told me that I wasn't the only person to call and report the issue.
Hi Al,

Downsizing from 16MP to 800x534 is much more destructive to detail than doing the same from 6MP. I assume that you've adjusted your PP and downsizing technique to account for this.

The difference in resolution can play games with your perception of the image -- I know it did with mine. Have you tried shooting the K-5 at 6MP and comparing files side by side with the K100 files? This might be a better way to compare. If they're similar, then the problem is probably not with the camera, and would point to a difference in perception.

Another factor might be details in your technique. After years of using the K100, you may have developed tiny unconscious hitches to compensate for the handling characteristics of that particular camera. I know that the shutter actuation has a totally different feel, and the weight and grip are significantly different. I'm still getting used to the K-5 at close to 1000 shots, and I'm coming from a K-7. . . This one, is of course, a long shot. . .

Just throwing out some off the wall possibilities. . .

Scott
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