K-5 Shutter blur

philippe · 12-29-2010, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by causey

Doesn't the manual say that the shake-reduction system should be turned off when the camera is mounted on a tripod?

The manual says the same for the K20d, but I always wondered why the SR had to be shut down when shooting on a tripod.
When there is no shake, due to the tripod, then there is no reduction needed, then the SR isn't activated to compensate for camera movements, then... oh boy what are we doing!

So, imagine, if there is no shaking when shooting hand held, then the situation might be similar for the SR system as shooting, at the same shutter speed, from a tripod, correct me when I am wrong.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say

falconeye · 12-29-2010, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by areidjr

The reason I put it on the tripod and did a series of test shots was that I was seeing soft/blurry shots in normal use, whereas I never had that issue with my K100DS. I wasn't looking for a problem, it found me. I was dismayed that many of the shots, even after being processed and reduced for web viewing weren't as crisp as I was used to. Only then did I notice a pattern to shutter speed and decided to run a few tests to confirm my suspicions.

Believe me when I say that I wanted nothing more than to be blown away by the images.

I had a conversation with Pentax after I posted this and, after a long discussion, they believed that it was a problem with the camera and that I should exchange it or send it in for service. They told me that I wasn't the only person to call and report the issue.

Ok, maybe your K-5 has a mirror slap problem or your finger has a problem being gentle

Your tests simply cannot find it out. The K-5 I tested did not add blur from the mirror slap when used free hand. But you have to run a series of shots to study this. On a tripod, you have altered the situation enough to exclude conclusions.

I must say Pentax is quite cooperative ATM. I would have asked for free hand sample shots first. The good part is that soon you and us will find out if it is user error or a sample fault.

causey · 12-29-2010, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by philippe

So, imagine, if there is no shaking when shooting hand held

A very relative notion of "no shaking"... There is always some, perhaps imperceptible, shaking when shooting hand held.

philippe · 12-29-2010, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by causey

A very relative notion of "no shaking"... There is always some, perhaps imperceptible, shaking when shooting hand held.

So, regardless the brand, there will always be a shaking issue, hand held or not.
Even on a tripod, any camera will be submitted to a certain, inevitable, shaking due to the system of the shutter, wether the mirror is locked up or not. So don't criticize (bash) Pentax alone.

And, if I understood some comments correctly, the larger mass of the camera might perhaps reduce the consequences of that 'shaking'. Then, who knows, mounting the battery grip could help till a certain extend, because this adds a mass to the camera body.
As usual, correct me if I am wrong...

BTW, a central shutter, as in the lenses of my MF (or LF-) camera, could be the answer. Once the mirror is locked up and the vibrations are faded away, the only, tiny, things moving are the thin leafs of the in-lens-shutter.

kenyee · 12-29-2010, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by areidjr

I only mounted the camera on the tripod in order to verify something that became evident when shooting hand held. Had I posted a series of hand-held shots everyone would be telling mo to repeat the test on a tripod

Do you have examples of the handheld shots? Post the full image as well as crops. I'd agree w/ pixel peeping will always show some shake at higher resolutions.

I posted a set of images in the low light focus thread about using the K-5 w/ a DA15 at 1/15s and the images being totally blurry (i.e., way more than a few pixels being shifted). 15mm should be ok at 1/15 using the 1/focal length issue. I can understand it being blurry for a few pictures, but for 3 in a row is unusual to me. So maybe there is something to the resonance at 1/15s theory or maybe SR has a bug for that area...

areidjr · 12-29-2010, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by noons

It would be interesting to know what serial/batch number your K-5 has (whether it is an early production model or not).

The serial number starts with 395 and was delivered with FW 1.01.

Rupert · 12-29-2010, 08:19 AM

My K20D doesn't seem to exhibit any of these problems at a noticeable level...or maybe I have just not been too picky about the sharpness, which could be, I am not too picky as long as the shot is presentable and has "viewing value". If the K5 is as good for me as the K20D , I will be very pleased, and I think that is what Al is wanting.....the features of the K5 and the IQ he is used to from his K100D. That sounds very reasonable to me....you too?
Take a look around here and I think you can see why he has loved his K100D, and that he is a competent shooter, not a first time player.
AReidJr's photosets on Flickr

Hopefully, this will be resolved soon, we all just want to be happy with our camera, and want others to be too.......don't we?
Best Regards!

creampuff · 12-29-2010, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by areidjr

...
I have a Manfrotto190XBD with a Manfrotto 322RC2 pistol grip ball head. This combo has served me well in the past with my K100D Super. Only change is the camera body.

I have used the 190 ProB series tripods and the same 322RC pistol grip before and I won't even consider it as a terribly stable setup. For one thing the 322 makes the camera sit pretty high and it doesn't lock as well under heavy load. That's one of the reasons I dumped my Manfrottos and switched to Gitzo, but that's another story.

narichey81 · 12-29-2010, 10:39 AM - **1 Like**

Its not surprising that any kind of mirror slap would be much more noticeable looking at 100% on a 16MP camera vs a 6MP camera. If the blur induced by the mirror is the same absolute magnatude (.5mm or whatever), its going to cover more pixels on the 16MP camera. Thats just the way it is with that kind of resolution jump, it will expose technique faults and gear problems that you would never notice on 6mp. At 6mp you image is 3008x2000, at 16mp its 4928x3264, so nearly twice in linear terms and three times in area. Have you made any prints from the k5? thats really the best way to evaluate sharpness, how does it look in a real circumstances.

A question, when you downsampled the k5 output to 6mp to compare, did you apply sharpening, and if so did you apply it before or after the resize? Because if you did the sharpening at 16mp, then downsampled to 6mp you basically removed any sharpening you did and would need to apply sharpening to the 6mp picture.

You might try setting the k5 to capture directly to 6mp and see if your results are more comparable

Tommot1965 · 12-29-2010, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by narichey81

You might try setting the k5 to capture directly to 6mp and see if your results are more comparable

OP
this is a good idea..compare apples with apples....give it a shot and let us know how it goes..

goubejp · 12-29-2010, 01:27 PM

My experience is that, on tripod, mirror slap is enough to induce visible vibrations - visible at the naked eye when I look at the lens - even on my heavy 600f4 (7 kgs); some oscillations at the natural frequency of the assembly are visible at naked eye, at a low frequency (roughly 2 Hz) cause of the weight of the lens; the size of the lens and the weight allow to see that at naked eye - without using acceleerometers; of course with a lighter lens the frequency will increase and may induce visible blurr; of course this is a common phenomenom for every DSLR and 2 second delay timer is here - even on my old LX there was a way to set the mirror up before firing.
This thread is about a non issue really
Regards

PALADIN85020 · 12-29-2010, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by philippe

The manual says the same for the K20d, but I always wondered why the SR had to be shut down when shooting on a tripod.
When there is no shake, due to the tripod, then there is no reduction needed, then the SR isn't activated to compensate for camera movements, then... oh boy what are we doing!

So, imagine, if there is no shaking when shooting hand held, then the situation might be similar for the SR system as shooting, at the same shutter speed, from a tripod, correct me when I am wrong.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say

Philippe,

The reason you should shut off the SR when the camera is tripod mounted is that the SR system will start hunting for shake when there is none. That minute movement of the SR compensation attempt will in itself induce some unwanted blurriness. The SR system is only happy when finding actual shake to reduce; anything else confuses it. So for maximum sharpness, turn off SR when using a tripod.

I take a lot of product shots using a tripod. In addition to turning the SR off, for maximum sharpness, I focus manually, use an f-stop that's a couple of stops tighter than wide open on that lens, use ISO 80 or 100, manual exposure (varying only shutter speed), and 2-second delay, mirror-up, or remote with 3-second delay to get the mirror up and quiet before the shutter actually releases. Then in PP I apply sharpness as needed to get everything absolutely razor sharp. The K-5 performs admirably in this manner. Here's a recent shot of a model 1896 Mauser pistol:

John

philippe · 12-30-2010, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by PALADIN85020

Philippe,

The reason you should shut off the SR when the camera is tripod mounted is that the SR system will start hunting for shake when there is none. That minute movement of the SR compensation attempt will in itself induce some unwanted blurriness. The SR system is only happy when finding actual shake to reduce; anything else confuses it. So for maximum sharpness, turn off SR when using a tripod.

I take a lot of product shots using a tripod. In addition to turning the SR off, for maximum sharpness, I focus manually, use an f-stop that's a couple of stops tighter than wide open on that lens, use ISO 80 or 100, manual exposure (varying only shutter speed), and 2-second delay, mirror-up, or remote with 3-second delay to get the shutter up and quiet before the shutter actually releases. Then in PP I apply sharpness as needed to get everything absolutely razor sharp. The K-5 performs admirably in this manner. Here's a recent shot of a model 1896 Mauser pistol:
John

Thank you John,
The reason why, I did not know, but, in a certain way, I do work about the same way you do.
Recently, I shot a lot of architecture ( https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/115363-my-new-book.html ) with my 'old' K20d, of course on a tripod (Man. 055), always with a cable release (= auto SR switch off

) and always bracketing in multi segment AV mode, the best mode ever, and correct intuitively.
Manual focusing: I find it so-so with the DA 15mm, details are to small in the finder to focus on. I have a Katzeye screen but don't like it. So I use the AF and select the focussing area in Live View. In architecture the grid on the focussing screen and in LV are worth more than gold!
In LV, it's a little bit like in my younger day's: working with a LF view camera, nice!

P.S. I did not realize that this Mauser dated from the 19 Th. century, is this a Parabellum too? A good 'shot' BTW.

PALADIN85020 · 12-30-2010, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by philippe

Thank you John,
The reason why, I did not know, but, in a certain way, I do work about the same way you do.
Recently, I shot a lot of architecture ( https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/115363-my-new-book.html ) with my 'old' K20d, of course on a tripod (Man. 055), always with a cable release (= auto SR switch off

) and always bracketing in multi segment AV mode, the best mode ever, and correct intuitively.
Manual focusing: I find it so-so with the DA 15mm, details are to small in the finder to focus on. I have a Katzeye screen but don't like it. So I use the AF and select the focussing area in Live View. In architecture the grid on the focussing screen and in LV are worth more than gold!
In LV, it's a little bit like in my younger day's: working with a LF view camera, nice!

P.S. I did not realize that this Mauser dated from the 19 Th. century, is this a Parabellum too? A good 'shot' BTW.

Philippe,

The C96 Mauser was designed in 1895 by the Feederle brothers who worked at Mauser in Oberndorf on the Neckar river. This particular pistol was made in 1914 and is in 7.63x25mm Mauser (also known as the .30 Mauser). It's classified as a pre-WWI commercial model. Some were made during WWI in 9mm Parabellum and issued to the German Army as a substitute standard. The P.08 (Luger) was then the standard pistol. Thanks for the compliment - that's a shot taken for a forthcoming article on the Mauser "broomhandle."

John

alspe · 09-16-2012, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by kenyee

When on a tripod, *always* use the 2sec delay to do mirror lockup.

The pistol grip head isn't the greatest BTW. The 190 will do find if you weight it down w/ your bag. I had the 055 which was heavier and didn't use it at full extension because it vibrated too much.

Is 2 sec delay same as mirror lock up? I think it can be used more generally when shooting landscapes and other stuff when you are not capturing the moment? Not just on tripod?

12-29-2010, 10:39 AM - 1 Like	#39
narichey81 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 58	more megapixels Its not surprising that any kind of mirror slap would be much more noticeable looking at 100% on a 16MP camera vs a 6MP camera. If the blur induced by the mirror is the same absolute magnatude (.5mm or whatever), its going to cover more pixels on the 16MP camera. Thats just the way it is with that kind of resolution jump, it will expose technique faults and gear problems that you would never notice on 6mp. At 6mp you image is 3008x2000, at 16mp its 4928x3264, so nearly twice in linear terms and three times in area. Have you made any prints from the k5? thats really the best way to evaluate sharpness, how does it look in a real circumstances. A question, when you downsampled the k5 output to 6mp to compare, did you apply sharpening, and if so did you apply it before or after the resize? Because if you did the sharpening at 16mp, then downsampled to 6mp you basically removed any sharpening you did and would need to apply sharpening to the 6mp picture. You might try setting the k5 to capture directly to 6mp and see if your results are more comparable

12-29-2010, 02:46 PM	#42
PALADIN85020 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 442	Originally posted by philippe The manual says the same for the K20d, but I always wondered why the SR had to be shut down when shooting on a tripod. When there is no shake, due to the tripod, then there is no reduction needed, then the SR isn't activated to compensate for camera movements, then... oh boy what are we doing! So, imagine, if there is no shaking when shooting hand held, then the situation might be similar for the SR system as shooting, at the same shutter speed, from a tripod, correct me when I am wrong. I hope you understand what I am trying to say Philippe, The reason you should shut off the SR when the camera is tripod mounted is that the SR system will start hunting for shake when there is none. That minute movement of the SR compensation attempt will in itself induce some unwanted blurriness. The SR system is only happy when finding actual shake to reduce; anything else confuses it. So for maximum sharpness, turn off SR when using a tripod. I take a lot of product shots using a tripod. In addition to turning the SR off, for maximum sharpness, I focus manually, use an f-stop that's a couple of stops tighter than wide open on that lens, use ISO 80 or 100, manual exposure (varying only shutter speed), and 2-second delay, mirror-up, or remote with 3-second delay to get the mirror up and quiet before the shutter actually releases. Then in PP I apply sharpness as needed to get everything absolutely razor sharp. The K-5 performs admirably in this manner. Here's a recent shot of a model 1896 Mauser pistol: John Last edited by PALADIN85020; 12-30-2010 at 03:02 PM.

12-30-2010, 02:28 AM	#43
philippe Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Flanders Fields Posts: 463	Originally posted by PALADIN85020 Philippe, The reason you should shut off the SR when the camera is tripod mounted is that the SR system will start hunting for shake when there is none. That minute movement of the SR compensation attempt will in itself induce some unwanted blurriness. The SR system is only happy when finding actual shake to reduce; anything else confuses it. So for maximum sharpness, turn off SR when using a tripod. I take a lot of product shots using a tripod. In addition to turning the SR off, for maximum sharpness, I focus manually, use an f-stop that's a couple of stops tighter than wide open on that lens, use ISO 80 or 100, manual exposure (varying only shutter speed), and 2-second delay, mirror-up, or remote with 3-second delay to get the shutter up and quiet before the shutter actually releases. Then in PP I apply sharpness as needed to get everything absolutely razor sharp. The K-5 performs admirably in this manner. Here's a recent shot of a model 1896 Mauser pistol: John Thank you John, The reason why, I did not know, but, in a certain way, I do work about the same way you do. Recently, I shot a lot of architecture ( https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/115363-my-new-book.html ) with my 'old' K20d, of course on a tripod (Man. 055), always with a cable release (= auto SR switch off) and always bracketing in multi segment AV mode, the best mode ever, and correct intuitively. Manual focusing: I find it so-so with the DA 15mm, details are to small in the finder to focus on. I have a Katzeye screen but don't like it. So I use the AF and select the focussing area in Live View. In architecture the grid on the focussing screen and in LV are worth more than gold! In LV, it's a little bit like in my younger day's: working with a LF view camera, nice! P.S. I did not realize that this Mauser dated from the 19 Th. century, is this a Parabellum too? A good 'shot' BTW.

12-30-2010, 02:54 PM	#44
PALADIN85020 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 442	Originally posted by philippe Thank you John, The reason why, I did not know, but, in a certain way, I do work about the same way you do. Recently, I shot a lot of architecture ( https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/115363-my-new-book.html ) with my 'old' K20d, of course on a tripod (Man. 055), always with a cable release (= auto SR switch off) and always bracketing in multi segment AV mode, the best mode ever, and correct intuitively. Manual focusing: I find it so-so with the DA 15mm, details are to small in the finder to focus on. I have a Katzeye screen but don't like it. So I use the AF and select the focussing area in Live View. In architecture the grid on the focussing screen and in LV are worth more than gold! In LV, it's a little bit like in my younger day's: working with a LF view camera, nice! P.S. I did not realize that this Mauser dated from the 19 Th. century, is this a Parabellum too? A good 'shot' BTW. Philippe, The C96 Mauser was designed in 1895 by the Feederle brothers who worked at Mauser in Oberndorf on the Neckar river. This particular pistol was made in 1914 and is in 7.63x25mm Mauser (also known as the .30 Mauser). It's classified as a pre-WWI commercial model. Some were made during WWI in 9mm Parabellum and issued to the German Army as a substitute standard. The P.08 (Luger) was then the standard pistol. Thanks for the compliment - that's a shot taken for a forthcoming article on the Mauser "broomhandle." John

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12-29-2010, 03:25 AM	#31
philippe Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Flanders Fields Posts: 463	Originally posted by causey Doesn't the manual say that the shake-reduction system should be turned off when the camera is mounted on a tripod? The manual says the same for the K20d, but I always wondered why the SR had to be shut down when shooting on a tripod. When there is no shake, due to the tripod, then there is no reduction needed, then the SR isn't activated to compensate for camera movements, then... oh boy what are we doing! So, imagine, if there is no shaking when shooting hand held, then the situation might be similar for the SR system as shooting, at the same shutter speed, from a tripod, correct me when I am wrong. I hope you understand what I am trying to say

12-29-2010, 03:57 AM	#32
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by areidjr The reason I put it on the tripod and did a series of test shots was that I was seeing soft/blurry shots in normal use, whereas I never had that issue with my K100DS. I wasn't looking for a problem, it found me. I was dismayed that many of the shots, even after being processed and reduced for web viewing weren't as crisp as I was used to. Only then did I notice a pattern to shutter speed and decided to run a few tests to confirm my suspicions. Believe me when I say that I wanted nothing more than to be blown away by the images. I had a conversation with Pentax after I posted this and, after a long discussion, they believed that it was a problem with the camera and that I should exchange it or send it in for service. They told me that I wasn't the only person to call and report the issue. Ok, maybe your K-5 has a mirror slap problem or your finger has a problem being gentle Your tests simply cannot find it out. The K-5 I tested did not add blur from the mirror slap when used free hand. But you have to run a series of shots to study this. On a tripod, you have altered the situation enough to exclude conclusions. I must say Pentax is quite cooperative ATM. I would have asked for free hand sample shots first. The good part is that soon you and us will find out if it is user error or a sample fault.

12-29-2010, 04:35 AM	#33
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	Originally posted by philippe So, imagine, if there is no shaking when shooting hand held A very relative notion of "no shaking"... There is always some, perhaps imperceptible, shaking when shooting hand held.

12-29-2010, 05:58 AM	#34
philippe Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Flanders Fields Posts: 463	Originally posted by causey A very relative notion of "no shaking"... There is always some, perhaps imperceptible, shaking when shooting hand held. So, regardless the brand, there will always be a shaking issue, hand held or not. Even on a tripod, any camera will be submitted to a certain, inevitable, shaking due to the system of the shutter, wether the mirror is locked up or not. So don't criticize (bash) Pentax alone. And, if I understood some comments correctly, the larger mass of the camera might perhaps reduce the consequences of that 'shaking'. Then, who knows, mounting the battery grip could help till a certain extend, because this adds a mass to the camera body. As usual, correct me if I am wrong... BTW, a central shutter, as in the lenses of my MF (or LF-) camera, could be the answer. Once the mirror is locked up and the vibrations are faded away, the only, tiny, things moving are the thin leafs of the in-lens-shutter.

12-29-2010, 06:53 AM	#35
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	Originally posted by areidjr I only mounted the camera on the tripod in order to verify something that became evident when shooting hand held. Had I posted a series of hand-held shots everyone would be telling mo to repeat the test on a tripod Do you have examples of the handheld shots? Post the full image as well as crops. I'd agree w/ pixel peeping will always show some shake at higher resolutions. I posted a set of images in the low light focus thread about using the K-5 w/ a DA15 at 1/15s and the images being totally blurry (i.e., way more than a few pixels being shifted). 15mm should be ok at 1/15 using the 1/focal length issue. I can understand it being blurry for a few pictures, but for 3 in a row is unusual to me. So maybe there is something to the resonance at 1/15s theory or maybe SR has a bug for that area...

12-29-2010, 07:17 AM	#36
areidjr Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 529 Original Poster	Originally posted by noons It would be interesting to know what serial/batch number your K-5 has (whether it is an early production model or not). The serial number starts with 395 and was delivered with FW 1.01.

12-29-2010, 08:19 AM	#37
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	My K20D doesn't seem to exhibit any of these problems at a noticeable level...or maybe I have just not been too picky about the sharpness, which could be, I am not too picky as long as the shot is presentable and has "viewing value". If the K5 is as good for me as the K20D , I will be very pleased, and I think that is what Al is wanting.....the features of the K5 and the IQ he is used to from his K100D. That sounds very reasonable to me....you too? Take a look around here and I think you can see why he has loved his K100D, and that he is a competent shooter, not a first time player. AReidJr's photosets on Flickr Hopefully, this will be resolved soon, we all just want to be happy with our camera, and want others to be too.......don't we? Best Regards!

12-29-2010, 08:26 AM	#38
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Originally posted by areidjr ... I have a Manfrotto190XBD with a Manfrotto 322RC2 pistol grip ball head. This combo has served me well in the past with my K100D Super. Only change is the camera body. I have used the 190 ProB series tripods and the same 322RC pistol grip before and I won't even consider it as a terribly stable setup. For one thing the 322 makes the camera sit pretty high and it doesn't lock as well under heavy load. That's one of the reasons I dumped my Manfrottos and switched to Gitzo, but that's another story.

12-29-2010, 01:08 PM	#40
Tommot1965 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Perth Western Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,026	Originally posted by narichey81 You might try setting the k5 to capture directly to 6mp and see if your results are more comparable OP this is a good idea..compare apples with apples....give it a shot and let us know how it goes..

12-29-2010, 01:27 PM	#41
goubejp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: France Photos: Albums Posts: 804	My experience is that, on tripod, mirror slap is enough to induce visible vibrations - visible at the naked eye when I look at the lens - even on my heavy 600f4 (7 kgs); some oscillations at the natural frequency of the assembly are visible at naked eye, at a low frequency (roughly 2 Hz) cause of the weight of the lens; the size of the lens and the weight allow to see that at naked eye - without using acceleerometers; of course with a lighter lens the frequency will increase and may induce visible blurr; of course this is a common phenomenom for every DSLR and 2 second delay timer is here - even on my old LX there was a way to set the mirror up before firing. This thread is about a non issue really Regards

09-16-2012, 01:11 AM	#45
alspe Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 36	Originally posted by kenyee When on a tripod, always use the 2sec delay to do mirror lockup. The pistol grip head isn't the greatest BTW. The 190 will do find if you weight it down w/ your bag. I had the 055 which was heavier and didn't use it at full extension because it vibrated too much. Is 2 sec delay same as mirror lock up? I think it can be used more generally when shooting landscapes and other stuff when you are not capturing the moment? Not just on tripod?