K-5 Shutter blur

areidjr · 12-28-2010, 02:58 PM

It's been a while since I posted here. I got a K-5 for Christmas and seem to be having a few issues and wanted to pass it by the forum.

Has anyone experiences the shutter blur or mirror slap issue with the K-5. There were many reports of the issue with the K-x and a few with the K7, but I hadn't hear of it yet with the K-5.

It seems that the issue with my unit shows up and becomes more pronounces with increasing FL. I tested the camera on a tripod using a wired remote and varied the shutter speed from 1-2 seconds (what ever I could get with ambient light and lowest ISO) to 1/1000 sec. Starting with my FA31 Limited and ending with my Bigma, the issue became more severe as the focal length went up. It started to be noticed at 50 mm (FA50 1:1.4) and a little worse at 77mm. Since I do a lot of wildlife and birding I also tested my DA55-300 and Bigma.

With SR either on or off on a tripod the issue is there and can be seen, but using the 2 sec delay the issue cannot be detected with any lens from 31 - 500mm. This sample was with the DA55-33 @ 300mm.

So, has anyone else heard of or seen this issue? Do you think it's a defect or user error? What are your thoughts?

Regards

Wheatfield · 12-28-2010, 03:02 PM

Good for you! You've discovered what photographers have known for decades, which is to use MLU for maximum sharpness.

azimuthal · 12-28-2010, 03:04 PM

I think this would be considered mirror slap blur, it's what the mirror-up function was made for.

the shutter blur is caused by shutter and can't be fixed by anything but shutter speed.

areidjr · 12-28-2010, 03:35 PM

First, I'm no newbie to photographt or Pentax equipment. I own a K100D Super and 14 lenses and have never had this kind of an issue before.

So what you are saying is that I shouldn't expect to be able to use the camera hand held or to get sharp photos in normal use. I guess I need to go back to my K100D Super in order to have a camera I can use.

Now, I posted this here on the recommendation of another member and was told that people here were helpful. I didn't post on DPR because I assumed that this was the kind of answer I'd get there.

creampuff · 12-28-2010, 03:53 PM

Before you go blame the camera, make sure the tripod and head you use to test is stable and sturdy. A lot of times I have seen people complain their camera has an issue when the weakest link is a dinky and flimsy tripod and cheap head that transmits all sorts of vibration.

PhilippeG · 12-28-2010, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by areidjr

So what you are saying is that I shouldn't expect to be able to use the camera hand held or to get sharp photos in normal use. I guess I need to go back to my K100D Super in order to have a camera I can use.

Well different people have different definitions of "sharp"

But basically yes, with or without SR and with any camera you will get sharper pictures with the mirror up and a 2sc delay.
Also keep in mind SR shouldn't be used on a tripod. I think it's actually automatically disabled when you use the 2sc delay.

areidjr · 12-28-2010, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by creampuff

Before you go blame the camera, make sure the tripod and head you use to test is stable and sturdy. A lot of times I have seen people complain their camera has an issue when the weakest link is a dinky and flimsy tripod and cheap head that transmits all sorts of vibration.

Manfroto tripod and pistol grip ball head. Quite sturdy and I never had this issue with my K100D Super. I only did the testing with the tripod because I noticed an issue shooting real world hand held photos.

Christine Tham · 12-28-2010, 04:16 PM

Interesting that you've never had this issue with your K100D Super, because I *think* I have similar issues with the K10D - 2 sec delay being sharper than SR at some shutter speeds when on tripod.

So I'm inclined to think it's mirror slap.

But thanks for posting the comparison shots - I can see you took some time generating them and they are a useful reference.

Wheatfield · 12-28-2010, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by areidjr

So what you are saying is that I shouldn't expect to be able to use the camera hand held or to get sharp photos in normal use. I guess I need to go back to my K100D Super in order to have a camera I can use.

This should be a fairly easy question to answer for yourself.
Can you use the camera to get sharp photos in normal use?
What tripod were you using, BTW, and what steps did you take to try to damp it?

areidjr · 12-28-2010, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

This should be a fairly easy question to answer for yourself.
Can you use the camera to get sharp photos in normal use?
What tripod were you using, BTW, and what steps did you take to try to damp it?

The problem began showing up in normal use, hand-held. I then found that the soft/blurry images were all taken at slower shutter speeds, but nothing that wasn't perfectly acceptable with my K100D Super.

I put it on a tripod to eliminate me being shaky (the excitement of a new toy) and to go through a more systematic and repeatable test scenario. The issue didn't just appear after I put it on my tripod.

I have a Manfrotto190XBD with a Manfrotto 322RC2 pistol grip ball head. This combo has served me well in the past with my K100D Super. Only change is the camera body.

areidjr · 12-28-2010, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Christine Tham

Interesting that you've never had this issue with your K100D Super, because I *think* I have similar issues with the K10D - 2 sec delay being sharper than SR at some shutter speeds when on tripod.

So I'm inclined to think it's mirror slap.

But thanks for posting the comparison shots - I can see you took some time generating them and they are a useful reference.

I'm inclined to agree. But, in 39 months with my K100D Super and over 38,000 photos, I never once had any reason to believe that it had this kind of issue. Sure, there were times when I used the mirror lockup to try to squeeze out a little more IQ, but I never had noticeably blurry photos without it.

kenyee · 12-28-2010, 04:37 PM

When on a tripod, *always* use the 2sec delay to do mirror lockup.

The pistol grip head isn't the greatest BTW. The 190 will do find if you weight it down w/ your bag. I had the 055 which was heavier and didn't use it at full extension because it vibrated too much.

Rupert · 12-28-2010, 06:05 PM - **2 Likes**

I'm more than a little disappointed that I sent Al over here for help from our little Friendly Forum on Flickr, it appears that the defenses were up immediately and his problems quickly discounted as "user error". I have known Al for ages and he is a highly skilled shooter, with photos from his K100D that rival any posted on this Forum from any camera, Pentax or otherwise. He has a problem and wants suggestions or input, advice as to whether others have this problem, and what his solution might be...send it back or send it for repair.....or?

Al has many, many, hundreds of shots that are very sharp at the ranges and speeds he posted, shot hand held with his K100D.......as I do with my K20D. If you guys are suggesting that the K5 requires mirror lock up and a heavy tripod to match the abilities of the K100D hand held, then that should be spread far and wide and will stop the sales of the K5 dead in its tracks. What shooter will pay a lot more for a camera that performs "almost" as well as the K100D, but only if you use mirror up and a heavy tripod? You interested in one of those? Didn't think so. So maybe someone here will give old Al some better advice than what he has been given so far, with a little better attitude to boot....he is not an enemy, he is a loyal Pentax shooter. I thought loyal Pentax Shooters were only shot down at DPR....and I am disappointed that "shoot the messenger" has now infected PF.
Best Regards
Rupert

krebsy75 · 12-28-2010, 06:27 PM

OP, was the camera mounted to a tripod for all test shots?

Ray Pulley · 12-28-2010, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Rupert

I'm more than a little disappointed that I sent Al over here for help from our little Friendly Forum on Flickr, it appears that the defenses were up immediately and his problems quickly discounted as "user error". I have known Al for ages and he is a highly skilled shooter, with photos from his K100D that rival any posted on this Forum from any camera, Pentax or otherwise. He has a problem and wants suggestions or input, advice as to whether others have this problem, and what his solution might be...send it back or send it for repair.....or?

Al has many, many, hundreds of shots that are very sharp at the ranges and speeds he posted, shot hand held with his K100D.......as I do with my K20D. If you guys are suggesting that the K5 requires mirror lock up and a heavy tripod to match the abilities of the K100D hand held, then that should be spread far and wide and will stop the sales of the K5 dead in its tracks. What shooter will pay a lot more for a camera that performs "almost" as well as the K100D, but only if you use mirror up and a heavy tripod? You interested in one of those? Didn't think so. So maybe someone here will give old Al some better advice than what he has been given so far, with a little better attitude to boot....he is not an enemy, he is a loyal Pentax shooter. I thought loyal Pentax Shooters were only shot down at DPR....and I am disappointed that "shoot the messenger" has now infected PF.
Best Regards
Rupert

While I would expect that the tripod/MLU/SR off would be the sharpest possible situation for any camera, I also think that we all get sucked in by comparing "sharpness" of images at 100% from cameras with vastly different resolution.

This is like comparing a 4"x6" print with a 11"x14" print at the same viewing distance and thinking that the smaller print is sharper.

This is not say that the images above are fine or sharper or less sharp than any your friend took with his K100D. However, I would be very surprised if the K100D showed the exact same level of sharpness when shot handheld versus a tripod with MLU, especially at slower shutter speeds.

Ask your friend to downsample the K5 images to 6mp and then compare them to his K100D for shapness.

Ray

12-28-2010, 02:58 PM	#1
areidjr Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 529	K-5 Shutter blur It's been a while since I posted here. I got a K-5 for Christmas and seem to be having a few issues and wanted to pass it by the forum. Has anyone experiences the shutter blur or mirror slap issue with the K-5. There were many reports of the issue with the K-x and a few with the K7, but I hadn't hear of it yet with the K-5. It seems that the issue with my unit shows up and becomes more pronounces with increasing FL. I tested the camera on a tripod using a wired remote and varied the shutter speed from 1-2 seconds (what ever I could get with ambient light and lowest ISO) to 1/1000 sec. Starting with my FA31 Limited and ending with my Bigma, the issue became more severe as the focal length went up. It started to be noticed at 50 mm (FA50 1:1.4) and a little worse at 77mm. Since I do a lot of wildlife and birding I also tested my DA55-300 and Bigma. With SR either on or off on a tripod the issue is there and can be seen, but using the 2 sec delay the issue cannot be detected with any lens from 31 - 500mm. This sample was with the DA55-33 @ 300mm. So, has anyone else heard of or seen this issue? Do you think it's a defect or user error? What are your thoughts? Regards

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12-28-2010, 03:02 PM	#2
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Good for you! You've discovered what photographers have known for decades, which is to use MLU for maximum sharpness.

12-28-2010, 03:04 PM	#3
azimuthal Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: reno Posts: 70	I think this would be considered mirror slap blur, it's what the mirror-up function was made for. the shutter blur is caused by shutter and can't be fixed by anything but shutter speed.

12-28-2010, 03:35 PM	#4
areidjr Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 529 Original Poster	First, I'm no newbie to photographt or Pentax equipment. I own a K100D Super and 14 lenses and have never had this kind of an issue before. So what you are saying is that I shouldn't expect to be able to use the camera hand held or to get sharp photos in normal use. I guess I need to go back to my K100D Super in order to have a camera I can use. Now, I posted this here on the recommendation of another member and was told that people here were helpful. I didn't post on DPR because I assumed that this was the kind of answer I'd get there.

12-28-2010, 03:53 PM	#5
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Before you go blame the camera, make sure the tripod and head you use to test is stable and sturdy. A lot of times I have seen people complain their camera has an issue when the weakest link is a dinky and flimsy tripod and cheap head that transmits all sorts of vibration.

12-28-2010, 03:56 PM	#6
PhilippeG Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 345	Originally posted by areidjr So what you are saying is that I shouldn't expect to be able to use the camera hand held or to get sharp photos in normal use. I guess I need to go back to my K100D Super in order to have a camera I can use. Well different people have different definitions of "sharp" But basically yes, with or without SR and with any camera you will get sharper pictures with the mirror up and a 2sc delay. Also keep in mind SR shouldn't be used on a tripod. I think it's actually automatically disabled when you use the 2sc delay.

12-28-2010, 03:59 PM	#7
areidjr Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 529 Original Poster	Originally posted by creampuff Before you go blame the camera, make sure the tripod and head you use to test is stable and sturdy. A lot of times I have seen people complain their camera has an issue when the weakest link is a dinky and flimsy tripod and cheap head that transmits all sorts of vibration. Manfroto tripod and pistol grip ball head. Quite sturdy and I never had this issue with my K100D Super. I only did the testing with the tripod because I noticed an issue shooting real world hand held photos.

12-28-2010, 04:16 PM	#8
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Interesting that you've never had this issue with your K100D Super, because I think I have similar issues with the K10D - 2 sec delay being sharper than SR at some shutter speeds when on tripod. So I'm inclined to think it's mirror slap. But thanks for posting the comparison shots - I can see you took some time generating them and they are a useful reference.

12-28-2010, 04:19 PM	#9
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by areidjr So what you are saying is that I shouldn't expect to be able to use the camera hand held or to get sharp photos in normal use. I guess I need to go back to my K100D Super in order to have a camera I can use. This should be a fairly easy question to answer for yourself. Can you use the camera to get sharp photos in normal use? What tripod were you using, BTW, and what steps did you take to try to damp it?

12-28-2010, 04:29 PM	#10
areidjr Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 529 Original Poster	Originally posted by Wheatfield This should be a fairly easy question to answer for yourself. Can you use the camera to get sharp photos in normal use? What tripod were you using, BTW, and what steps did you take to try to damp it? The problem began showing up in normal use, hand-held. I then found that the soft/blurry images were all taken at slower shutter speeds, but nothing that wasn't perfectly acceptable with my K100D Super. I put it on a tripod to eliminate me being shaky (the excitement of a new toy) and to go through a more systematic and repeatable test scenario. The issue didn't just appear after I put it on my tripod. I have a Manfrotto190XBD with a Manfrotto 322RC2 pistol grip ball head. This combo has served me well in the past with my K100D Super. Only change is the camera body.

12-28-2010, 04:32 PM	#11
areidjr Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 529 Original Poster	Originally posted by Christine Tham Interesting that you've never had this issue with your K100D Super, because I think I have similar issues with the K10D - 2 sec delay being sharper than SR at some shutter speeds when on tripod. So I'm inclined to think it's mirror slap. But thanks for posting the comparison shots - I can see you took some time generating them and they are a useful reference. I'm inclined to agree. But, in 39 months with my K100D Super and over 38,000 photos, I never once had any reason to believe that it had this kind of issue. Sure, there were times when I used the mirror lockup to try to squeeze out a little more IQ, but I never had noticeably blurry photos without it.

12-28-2010, 04:37 PM	#12
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	When on a tripod, always use the 2sec delay to do mirror lockup. The pistol grip head isn't the greatest BTW. The 190 will do find if you weight it down w/ your bag. I had the 055 which was heavier and didn't use it at full extension because it vibrated too much.

12-28-2010, 06:05 PM - 2 Likes	#13
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	I'm more than a little disappointed that I sent Al over here for help from our little Friendly Forum on Flickr, it appears that the defenses were up immediately and his problems quickly discounted as "user error". I have known Al for ages and he is a highly skilled shooter, with photos from his K100D that rival any posted on this Forum from any camera, Pentax or otherwise. He has a problem and wants suggestions or input, advice as to whether others have this problem, and what his solution might be...send it back or send it for repair.....or? Al has many, many, hundreds of shots that are very sharp at the ranges and speeds he posted, shot hand held with his K100D.......as I do with my K20D. If you guys are suggesting that the K5 requires mirror lock up and a heavy tripod to match the abilities of the K100D hand held, then that should be spread far and wide and will stop the sales of the K5 dead in its tracks. What shooter will pay a lot more for a camera that performs "almost" as well as the K100D, but only if you use mirror up and a heavy tripod? You interested in one of those? Didn't think so. So maybe someone here will give old Al some better advice than what he has been given so far, with a little better attitude to boot....he is not an enemy, he is a loyal Pentax shooter. I thought loyal Pentax Shooters were only shot down at DPR....and I am disappointed that "shoot the messenger" has now infected PF. Best Regards Rupert

12-28-2010, 06:27 PM	#14
krebsy75 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Chester County, Pa. Posts: 804	OP, was the camera mounted to a tripod for all test shots?

12-28-2010, 06:29 PM	#15
Ray Pulley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fallon Nevada Photos: Albums Posts: 504	Originally posted by Rupert I'm more than a little disappointed that I sent Al over here for help from our little Friendly Forum on Flickr, it appears that the defenses were up immediately and his problems quickly discounted as "user error". I have known Al for ages and he is a highly skilled shooter, with photos from his K100D that rival any posted on this Forum from any camera, Pentax or otherwise. He has a problem and wants suggestions or input, advice as to whether others have this problem, and what his solution might be...send it back or send it for repair.....or? Al has many, many, hundreds of shots that are very sharp at the ranges and speeds he posted, shot hand held with his K100D.......as I do with my K20D. If you guys are suggesting that the K5 requires mirror lock up and a heavy tripod to match the abilities of the K100D hand held, then that should be spread far and wide and will stop the sales of the K5 dead in its tracks. What shooter will pay a lot more for a camera that performs "almost" as well as the K100D, but only if you use mirror up and a heavy tripod? You interested in one of those? Didn't think so. So maybe someone here will give old Al some better advice than what he has been given so far, with a little better attitude to boot....he is not an enemy, he is a loyal Pentax shooter. I thought loyal Pentax Shooters were only shot down at DPR....and I am disappointed that "shoot the messenger" has now infected PF. Best Regards Rupert While I would expect that the tripod/MLU/SR off would be the sharpest possible situation for any camera, I also think that we all get sucked in by comparing "sharpness" of images at 100% from cameras with vastly different resolution. This is like comparing a 4"x6" print with a 11"x14" print at the same viewing distance and thinking that the smaller print is sharper. This is not say that the images above are fine or sharper or less sharp than any your friend took with his K100D. However, I would be very surprised if the K100D showed the exact same level of sharpness when shot handheld versus a tripod with MLU, especially at slower shutter speeds. Ask your friend to downsample the K5 images to 6mp and then compare them to his K100D for shapness. Ray