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01-27-2011, 09:53 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Wow, just wow.
You really want someone to fall on their sword over this don't you?

The other day I got a recall notification on my truck. They wanted to replace something called the ECM.
Apparently it is not a good thing if it fails.
They didn't go into the hows and whys of what made them decide to issue a recall, nor did they go into the manufacturing or design error that caused the defect in the first place. They just said that they had discovered a defect and wanted the truck back so they could fix it.

From the consumers POV, that is all that is required.
Now, I suppose I could say that my truck is a $50K lemon because it's had a recall.
Every company has the occasional buggy product. Pentax actually has a pretty good track record to date, both with not having had a lot of problems in the past, and with being pretty good about fixing them.
For myself, I'd say it's time to put this baby back in it's crib and let it sleep.
+1 Well said.

01-27-2011, 12:41 PM - 2 Likes   #32
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Hard earned money

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Wow, just wow.
You really want someone to fall on their sword over this don't you?
No! Wheatfield and others, you completely misunderstand the nature of my post. You don't seem to realize that few outside of this forum and maybe a couple of other forums have a clue that there has been a problem with the K5 "stain". If I relied only on major reviewers' publications, I never would have heard about this.

You accuse me falsely by saying that I want "someone to fall on their sword". I could also say of you that "You like to put words in my mouth and twist my meaning". I do not want anyone fired over this. I want accurate information so that ALL consumers know that there are adequate answers so they can continue to spend their hard earned money on this brand. I am VERY happy that there is some sort of acknowledgment from Japan HQ and also in English. That allows the retailers to feel that they can also acknowledge the problem (which has not happened to date). But it only seems to cover those with current warranties. After the warranties are up, so sorry Charlie! Consumers NEED to know this. And it has not been publicized enough in the press. Or are you in favor of this being done with and consumers not allowed to know accurate information that could help them avoid a mistake?

So, in my opinion, it is NOT time to "put this baby back in its crib". It is time to press for follow-through and make sure that Pentax and the dealer network can effectively deal with this problem. What if a year or two from now, after any mention of this problem has died down, and many hapless consumers buy expensive used K5's, many still with "stains", but only discovered after the time when they could have returned it to the dealer of forum member??? What happens to Pentax's reputation then??? "Too bad", you might say? People do vote with their feet and I would like to see Pentax in as strong a position as possible. A whole lot of used sales does help fund new sales by the sellers of used equipment and is a big reason why Pentax is still in business. They are coming out with wonderful products and dealing with this problem in a way to deal with future customers, not just current ones, is a good clean way of maintaining good relationships and a good reputation.

Does this make sense from a longer-term business point of view?
01-27-2011, 03:08 PM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Wow, just wow.
You really want someone to fall on their sword over this don't you?

The other day I got a recall notification on my truck. They wanted to replace something called the ECM.
Apparently it is not a good thing if it fails.
They didn't go into the hows and whys of what made them decide to issue a recall, nor did they go into the manufacturing or design error that caused the defect in the first place. They just said that they had discovered a defect and wanted the truck back so they could fix it.

From the consumers POV, that is all that is required.
Now, I suppose I could say that my truck is a $50K lemon because it's had a recall.
Every company has the occasional buggy product. Pentax actually has a pretty good track record to date, both with not having had a lot of problems in the past, and with being pretty good about fixing them.
For myself, I'd say it's time to put this baby back in it's crib and let it sleep.
Wow - imagine if Pentax had issued a K-5 recall back in early December, before most of us had even discovered the sensor issue (because that woud make your analogy more applicable here. I'm pretty sure that you and most truck owners had no idea there was an ECM issue. You didn't all have to go 'whining' on some Internet forum to force Ford or GM to acknowledge a problem and offer to fix it).

Imagine how that would have changed to whole tone of the postings on PentaxForums over the past 2 months. It would have been so much more upbeat. But, Pentax did not do that, and based on their response (or lack of) to the SDM issue, a lot of K-5 owners felt a need to make a lot of noise about it.

If only...
01-27-2011, 03:23 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by goldenarrow Quote
No! Wheatfield and others, you completely misunderstand the nature of my post. You don't seem to realize that few outside of this forum and maybe a couple of other forums have a clue that there has been a problem with the K5 "stain". If I relied only on major reviewers' publications, I never would have heard about this.

You accuse me falsely by saying that I want "someone to fall on their sword". I could also say of you that "You like to put words in my mouth and twist my meaning". I do not want anyone fired over this. I want accurate information so that ALL consumers know that there are adequate answers so they can continue to spend their hard earned money on this brand. I am VERY happy that there is some sort of acknowledgment from Japan HQ and also in English. That allows the retailers to feel that they can also acknowledge the problem (which has not happened to date). But it only seems to cover those with current warranties. After the warranties are up, so sorry Charlie! Consumers NEED to know this. And it has not been publicized enough in the press. Or are you in favor of this being done with and consumers not allowed to know accurate information that could help them avoid a mistake?

So, in my opinion, it is NOT time to "put this baby back in its crib". It is time to press for follow-through and make sure that Pentax and the dealer network can effectively deal with this problem. What if a year or two from now, after any mention of this problem has died down, and many hapless consumers buy expensive used K5's, many still with "stains", but only discovered after the time when they could have returned it to the dealer of forum member??? What happens to Pentax's reputation then??? "Too bad", you might say? People do vote with their feet and I would like to see Pentax in as strong a position as possible. A whole lot of used sales does help fund new sales by the sellers of used equipment and is a big reason why Pentax is still in business. They are coming out with wonderful products and dealing with this problem in a way to deal with future customers, not just current ones, is a good clean way of maintaining good relationships and a good reputation.

Does this make sense from a longer-term business point of view?
I'd like to see Pentax issue a warranty statement covering a stained K-5 sensor from original manufacturing for 5 years, regardless of the owner. If the sensor is not stained as claimed by the owner, the owner pays for shipping both ways and a sensor cleaning.

01-27-2011, 03:33 PM   #35
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It will blow over in few weeks.
01-27-2011, 07:14 PM   #36
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My original questions!

QuoteOriginally posted by JayBee Quote
Wow - imagine if Pentax had issued a K-5 recall back in early December, before most of us had even discovered the sensor issue (because that woud make your analogy more applicable here. I'm pretty sure that you and most truck owners had no idea there was an ECM issue. You didn't all have to go 'whining' on some Internet forum to force Ford or GM to acknowledge a problem and offer to fix it).
Yeah, JayBee, I agree with you. Besides, trucks and cars are regulated for safety issues and a host of comsumer safety groups. It is very visible (even on the national evening news) when a recall gets issued. And you can bet good odds that there were deaths and/or lawsuits involved to get a recall to happen for some of those issues. So, it is a bit of a stretch for people to use car/truck recalls as a fair comparison.

Perhaps, for consideration, a better analogy would be the hobbyist use of $1500 stainless steel refrigerators (inspired by Rachel Ray or whatever). Perhaps a company will not deny that their "K5" model gives a bad odor to the food inside but only after 2-3 months of using the equipment. What would the used market be for such a product? And don't you think MANY people would think poorly of that brand if the company did not do something?

Fortunately, Pentax is doing something. Perhaps not enough beyond current warranties (hence the need for THIS Community to help each other, look out for each other, etc.). Perhaps we need a serial# database, similar to what has happened to the DA* 16-50 zoom for de-centering issues??

My original questions still stand: What is the date of manufacture when the fix was implemented? What was the starting serial# of fixed bodies going forward?

I think we can firgure this out ourselves if enough people contribute. I think the lowest number I heard that did not have the problem was somewhere in the neighborhood of 389****. But not sure. Someone want to mention the highest serial# that was fixed by Pentax or an authorized repair shop???

And, does Pentax make the K5 in one location or multiple?

01-27-2011, 07:20 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by betaPhoto Quote
I'd like to see Pentax issue a warranty statement covering a stained K-5 sensor from original manufacturing for 5 years, regardless of the owner. If the sensor is not stained as claimed by the owner, the owner pays for shipping both ways and a sensor cleaning.
Unfortunately, a sensor cleaning does not fix this problem.
01-27-2011, 08:28 PM   #38
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i would take it by now there should be a significant number of samples to say which batch was affected more then most....or is the issue actually random and any K5 could be affected.

anyway, now that all has been said and done. There is no reason to worry since if the issue is discovered, the flowchart is in place for repairs. For most users, thats all there is to it.

Question is what if the issue was discovered after the warranty period is over say you want to sell to someone else but that person tested the camera and confirmed the issue...who pays?

01-28-2011, 01:12 AM - 2 Likes   #39
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I'm pretty surprised by how much slack is being given to Pentax on this issue. It reeks of fanboyism, so I guess Pentaxians are not SO different from nikonians and canonites, after all! Here is the deal: Pentax screwed up-- on their flagship camera. Yes, it's true. No one is calling for mass seppuku at Pentax HQ. What would be reasonable would be for Pentax to have a streamlined and consistent way for consumers to 1)confirm that they have an affected model and 2)get clear instructions on what to do and 3)receive a replacement QUICKLY from Pentax. Presumably, Pentax's QA is not so useless that they cannot identify potentially affected cameras from the serial number or manufacturing date. Set up a hotline/web site/whatever to confirm that your camera is elligible for return, and/or maybe to actually be a little proactive and contact wholesalers to whom were sent affected K-5s to recall them or inform customers. Thsi is not rocket science.

Instead, depending on which country you are in and which retailer you bought from, you get different answers on who to send it back to, a woefully uninformed (with respect the he existence of the problem) dealerbase,

I can only wonder what the poor engineers at Pentax must be thinking, after designing such a fantastic camera -- only to see it get crapped on by subpar QA/QC and PR.
01-28-2011, 01:15 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxn Quote
I'm pretty surprised by how much slack is being given to Pentax on this issue. It reeks of fanboyism, so I guess Pentaxians are not SO different from nikonians and canonites, after all! Here is the deal: Pentax screwed up-- on their flagship camera. Yes, it's true. No one is calling for mass seppuku at Pentax HQ. What would be reasonable would be for Pentax to have a streamlined and consistent way for consumers to 1)confirm that they have an affected model and 2)get clear instructions on what to do and 3)receive a replacement QUICKLY from Pentax. Presumably, Pentax's QA is not so useless that they cannot identify potentially affected cameras from the serial number or manufacturing date. Set up a hotline/web site/whatever to confirm that your camera is elligible for return, and/or maybe to actually be a little proactive and contact wholesalers to whom were sent affected K-5s to recall them or inform customers. Thsi is not rocket science.

Instead, depending on which country you are in and which retailer you bought from, you get different answers on who to send it back to, a woefully uninformed (with respect the he existence of the problem) dealerbase,

I can only wonder what the poor engineers at Pentax must be thinking, after designing such a fantastic camera -- only to see it get crapped on by subpar QA/QC and PR.
Someone with 6 posts and 0 rep reeks of canikon fanboy trolling.
01-28-2011, 03:24 AM   #41
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Here in SA not one shop stocks the K5 due to it's "issues"

No decent local online stores sell it either.

Pentax like it or not have likely lost many $$$$ in existing Pentax owners moving to another brand - like me.
01-28-2011, 03:56 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by goldenarrow Quote
I think we can firgure this out ourselves if enough people contribute. I think the lowest number I heard that did not have the problem was somewhere in the neighborhood of 389****. But not sure. Someone want to mention the highest serial# that was fixed by Pentax or an authorized repair shop???
In the database, so fare there are no stains reported higher than 395xxxx
I.e so far no stains listed for 396xxxx and up.
01-28-2011, 04:56 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by goldenarrow Quote
QuoteOriginally posted by betaPhoto Quote
I'd like to see Pentax issue a warranty statement covering a stained K-5 sensor from original manufacturing for 5 years, regardless of the owner. If the sensor is not stained as claimed by the owner, the owner pays for shipping both ways and a sensor cleaning.
Unfortunately, a sensor cleaning does not fix this problem.
What he did mean was that if itís sent inn, and they find itís not "stained as claimed by the owner", only dust, then one should pay for the postage, check and cleaning.
01-28-2011, 05:06 AM   #44
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Bingo!

QuoteOriginally posted by Reportage Quote
i would take it by now there should be a significant number of samples to say which batch was affected more then most....or is the issue actually random and any K5 could be affected.

anyway, now that all has been said and done. There is no reason to worry since if the issue is discovered, the flowchart is in place for repairs. For most users, thats all there is to it.

Question is what if the issue was discovered after the warranty period is over say you want to sell to someone else but that person tested the camera and confirmed the issue...who pays?

+1. Lots of negotiation and scrutiny?
01-28-2011, 05:11 AM   #45
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Database???

QuoteOriginally posted by Wiker Quote
In the database, so fare there are no stains reported higher than 395xxxx
I.e so far no stains listed for 396xxxx and up.
Wilker,
Thanks for the numbers. But wondering which database you are talking about? Is there one already compiled??? You must mean pentaxforum's listing:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-serial-number-database/?do=viewserials&id=133 ??

Thanks for taking the time to look through it.
So far, 3865827 is the highest serial# with positively identified "string of pearls" stain. The two others after that do not clarify, could be anything.

Last edited by goldenarrow; 01-28-2011 at 05:20 AM. Reason: correction+ added text
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