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01-29-2011, 11:51 AM   #76
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It is Obviously FF

QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Jeff, I see no problem in that shot...not for me anyhow. What we have here as I see it is some with no problems, or very minor problems, and others with more emphatic or major problems.
I am not really willing to accept that we can't recognize that both of these conditions can exist at the same time in different cameras?

I have pointed out before, I know Al and have for a long time...he is fully qualified, a very loyal Pentax user, and even through our major differences a long time ago over at P&R, I have never once found him dishonest or to be "looking for trouble". He simply wants his K5 to work as well as his K100D in low light. He has praised the K5, loves everything else about it, and is not an enemy by any stretch of the imagination. By Golly, I want to see him get a good K5.....and I want one too!
BTW- I have many thousands of dollars of Pentax and Pentax related gear, and it gives me every right to voice my concerns.
Rupert,

Look at the sewing on the patch (or whatever it is) in front of the Santa figurine. It is sharp and the Santas are not.

This might be ok with some, but really is not going to make a usable macro shot (in this case).

For those that think this is some sort of mm problem, it is not. The FF you see in the shot above will be proportionally bigger at a greater distance to the subject if all else is equal (like lighting and f stop).

In addition, in my experience, as the light is reduced, the focus point moves more and more to the front, so using a flash isn't an answer.

The real clue is that the exact same shot with live view will be extremely sharp, showing what the camera is capable of. If the Santa shot had been taken with both focusing methods, the difference would be very clear (ha, pun intended).

Ray

01-29-2011, 12:28 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Jeff, I see no problem in that shot...not for me anyhow. What we have here as I see it is some with no problems, or very minor problems, and others with more emphatic or major problems.
I am not really willing to accept that we can't recognize that both of these conditions can exist at the same time in different cameras?

I have pointed out before, I know Al and have for a long time...he is fully qualified, a very loyal Pentax user, and even through our major differences a long time ago over at P&R, I have never once found him dishonest or to be "looking for trouble". He simply wants his K5 to work as well as his K100D in low light. He has praised the K5, loves everything else about it, and is not an enemy by any stretch of the imagination. By Golly, I want to see him get a good K5.....and I want one too!
BTW- I have many thousands of dollars of Pentax and Pentax related gear, and it gives me every right to voice my concerns.
As an internet posting size photo as shown, there are no problems. You can put me down for the 'slight' issue camp. I've been living with a manual focus lens all January for the Single in January game and truthfully, haven't really tested AF with a fast lens, very much (not since I stuck the FA*85 back in the bag for awhile anyway). If you look at the linked photo (pixel peeper version) the beading on the decoration in front of the railcar, you'll see that it is sharp where the area behind it (the focal point) falls off.

It isn't something I'm going to get by drawers in a bunch about, this FF issue has little affect on me. I'm more disappointed that my K5 has grown the dreaded sensor stain. For auto focusing, I find I can make Any auto focus problem disappear by going to Live View and pushing the AF button. That is especially a nice option since they've given us the ability to disable AF on the Shutter button when Using Live View.

In the latest FW they did a couple things with the way the AF behaves but I haven't tested it yet in a similar situation to see if it changed anything.

Overall, I find the K5 to be a stellar performer. It incorporates most if not all of the features and options people have been wanting since I became aware of Pentax (2006 with the K10d). To all those who are keeping the K10d for the low ISO DR, the K20d for the slightly larger sensor and AF adjust features (among a few other things), The K7 for it's AF performance, body size, live view, video, etc, K-x for the High ISO shooting, sell them all and grab a K5. It really is the best of all worlds IMO. My only regret in doing so at the present time, is I'll be without a regular dSLR for the time my K5 is in for service/replacement.

01-29-2011, 01:06 PM   #78
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You know what really stands out to me in this thread? The number of people who casually dismiss all the reported defects as "statistical noise" just because it doesn't affect them. Instead of being concerned that a huge quantity of fellow Pentaxians got hosed with a stained sensor and have had to suffer through a slow, frustrating exchange period, the apologists just sit there and pretend like it's a meaningless concern.

I'd like to point out that, while Pentax issued an apology for the stained sensor problem (and how bad does the problem need to be for THAT to happen?!?), they did NOT issue a recall for it. This means that defective cameras are still sitting in retail stores' inventories throughout the world, just waiting for unsuspecting buyers to bring them home. And if you think a recall was not warranted, I point you to the recent 645D recall which was for a defect far less serious.

A friend of mine was recently in his local big-name brick-and-mortar camera store. When he asked the salesman about the K-5, that salesman looked around to make sure no-one else was within hearing, and told him "I don't want to sell you one. Odds are, you'll be back here in short order with some kind of defect. You're better off waiting."

edit: and this isn't even mentioning FF/BF issues in low light, or bounced flash metering, all of which have affected a HUGE proportion of K-5 buyers.

Last edited by Hound Tooth; 01-29-2011 at 01:55 PM.
01-29-2011, 02:37 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Hound Tooth Quote
You know what really stands out to me in this thread? The number of people who casually dismiss all the reported defects as "statistical noise" just because it doesn't affect them. Instead of being concerned that a huge quantity of fellow Pentaxians got hosed with a stained sensor and have had to suffer through a slow, frustrating exchange period, the apologists just sit there and pretend like it's a meaningless concern.

I'd like to point out that, while Pentax issued an apology for the stained sensor problem (and how bad does the problem need to be for THAT to happen?!?), they did NOT issue a recall for it. This means that defective cameras are still sitting in retail stores' inventories throughout the world, just waiting for unsuspecting buyers to bring them home. And if you think a recall was not warranted, I point you to the recent 645D recall which was for a defect far less serious.

A friend of mine was recently in his local big-name brick-and-mortar camera store. When he asked the salesman about the K-5, that salesman looked around to make sure no-one else was within hearing, and told him "I don't want to sell you one. Odds are, you'll be back here in short order with some kind of defect. You're better off waiting."

edit: and this isn't even mentioning FF/BF issues in low light, or bounced flash metering, all of which have affected a HUGE proportion of K-5 buyers.
I can't say that I like the sound of that, but I also can't say that I find it inaccurate or overstated. The Marketplace eventually corrects what a Mfg fails to correct, and it shows up in sales figures, net profit, and resale values. In the age of the internet, all that is accelerated at a fast pace. A quick responder will avoid the inevitable by nipping the bud before it blossoms.
Best Regards

01-29-2011, 04:43 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zugzwang Quote
Your not getting it.
In your world it's a minor problem, in my world it's a major problem. It all depends on one's shooting preferance. My K5 was useless in about 50% of what I normally shoot.
I did return mine, but I'm not playing the "I'm on my 4th K5" game.
I'll wait.

I did get it!, and I didn't say that you had a minor issue, quite the reverse, as I said most have minor FF, yours has huge FF...not minor at all....

and to wait a few more weeks at this time, I feel is prudent
01-29-2011, 05:21 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
Rupert,

Look at the sewing on the patch (or whatever it is) in front of the Santa figurine. It is sharp and the Santas are not.

This might be ok with some, but really is not going to make a usable macro shot (in this case).

For those that think this is some sort of mm problem, it is not. The FF you see in the shot above will be proportionally bigger at a greater distance to the subject if all else is equal (like lighting and f stop).

In addition, in my experience, as the light is reduced, the focus point moves more and more to the front, so using a flash isn't an answer.

The real clue is that the exact same shot with live view will be extremely sharp, showing what the camera is capable of. If the Santa shot had been taken with both focusing methods, the difference would be very clear (ha, pun intended).

Ray
Ray, JeffJS mentioned that in the shot, he focused on the elf's head.
Now if that is the focus point then I'd say the image is sharp.
I would hesitate to call this FF and I wouldn't actually care whether the sewing patch is sharp or not because that's not where focus was aimed at. Now if you look carefully at the image, the plane of focus is very narrow and the cart was shot at an angle to the camera pointing slightly downwards (look at the shadows and angle of the cart). The santa is definitely not on the same plane of focus as the elf's head. Imo the focus is accurate, if not the elf's head would not be sharp.
01-29-2011, 05:26 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
whats the manufacturer date on yours Greg
23/11/2010

I don't expect every camera to be complely perfect. All cameras are flawed in some way, you just work around it. My K20 was terrible at doing some things, brilliant at others.
If you have FF issues under certain lighting conditions then use manual focus! Or do you expect your K5 to to everything for you? I am referring to those with relatively minor issues.
01-29-2011, 05:35 PM   #83
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Those with "relatively minor issues" are doing very little posting here. When you are FF at 5 feet in front of the target, I hardly think that is minor. I would be just as concerned if those with fine functioning K5's were called "relatively few"....wouldn't you agree? Continuous denial of a real problem never makes it go away, but it does tend to make it grow. Witness this Forum.
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01-29-2011, 05:39 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Harald Quote
I do not know why you take this as personal as it seems. But flaming is not an good behaviour in conversation.

I told my opinion, you found from it an reason to be so offended that started this flaming. I am sorry for you, cant help...

This conversation with you is over from my side. I hope you do the same. No reason to continue.
I'm not flaming you I'm making observations on your attitude to the low light FF issue in the K-5. Whatever the condition of your cameras compared to your K-5 there are many who testify that their K-5s have a serious FF issueand report no such issues with their previous Pentax bodies

QuoteOriginally posted by Harald Quote
Allthough they are loyal Pentax users, it seems to me that many of them are quite a newbies in photographing and with advanced SLR:s.

So there is a lot of gripes about issues that are not due to a camera but fellow behind it. Quite a many "issues" are put on camera, but many of them are just lack of experience and knowledge and pure incompetence.

It is difficult to say in public, politically incorrect, but many have bought cameras exceeding their own level of skills quite a lot. And those are in very many cases first ones to blame the equipment, and are not capable to see the truth.
You make statements that are prejudiced in judging people as being incompetent and buying cameras that 'exceed their own skills' and then make a proclamation that you have been photographing for 30 years as if that gives you some kind of authority to have superiority over others.

And then you claim "I do not know why you take this as personal"

You talk of "not an good behaviour", but your relevent posts are not good behaviour. And yes I'm calling you out on it because you are being offensive.
01-29-2011, 05:45 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
23/11/2010

I don't expect every camera to be complely perfect. All cameras are flawed in some way, you just work around it. My K20 was terrible at doing some things, brilliant at others.
If you have FF issues under certain lighting conditions then use manual focus! Or do you expect your K5 to to everything for you? I am referring to those with relatively minor issues.
What is your point?

My K-5 has the Low light FF issue. Do you really think I haven't the sense to find a temporary workaround for this fault?

Yes I know the workarounds. Live view AF or manual focus.

Are you really suggesting those who are reporting a fault with their new camera have no idea how to apply a temporary workaround?

Or are you suggesting that we should live with this fault and always use teh workaround?
01-29-2011, 05:50 PM   #86
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i just posted my test result under halogen lighting

please see the last set at F4....not too bad....

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/129738-k-5-user-auto-foc...results-4.html
01-29-2011, 06:04 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Ray, JeffJS mentioned that in the shot, he focused on the elf's head.
Now if that is the focus point then I'd say the image is sharp.
I would hesitate to call this FF and I wouldn't actually care whether the sewing patch is sharp or not because that's not where focus was aimed at. Now if you look carefully at the image, the plane of focus is very narrow and the cart was shot at an angle to the camera pointing slightly downwards (look at the shadows and angle of the cart). The santa is definitely not on the same plane of focus as the elf's head. Imo the focus is accurate, if not the elf's head would not be sharp.
I also note that this is a crop, not a full photo and certainly not a macro (as suggested earlier). Fact is, I would rarely use AF for a macro.

You are correct in your assessment of the camera angle however, it is a slight downward pointing angle. That is, it is not a direct line, flat on shot of the cart. I'm standing about 10 feet from it and it is at about waist level. It is definitely slightly front focused however. Whether one would care or not is irrelevant to that point. I don't have the same out of whack AF some seem to be experiencing and as I stated earlier, this isn't enough to make me get all worked up.

01-29-2011, 06:26 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smeggypants Quote
What is your point?

My K-5 has the Low light FF issue. Do you really think I haven't the sense to find a temporary workaround for this fault?

Yes I know the workarounds. Live view AF or manual focus.

Are you really suggesting those who are reporting a fault with their new camera have no idea how to apply a temporary workaround?

Or are you suggesting that we should live with this fault and always use teh workaround?
If you aren't happy with the workaround and your K5 has an issue you think is unacceptable then get it replaced. It's up to the individual. Even if I had this problem (minor) it wouldn't bother me one bit, but everyone is different and uses their equipment for different reasons.
I do wonder how many K5 owners would have known about any of these issues if they hadn't been aired on here. And before I get jumped on, I know some have serious issues, some have relatively minor one. The point of this thread was to put some perspective on the whols thing.
I am very happy with my K5, it as a great camera, but anyone contemplating buying one, after reading this forum, would probably be reconsidering!
01-29-2011, 06:34 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
While some of what you say here is true (like the K7 had improvements in various areas but not in noise performance), your last statement is nonsense.

I simply want my K5 to perform to the published specifications. That has nothing to do with simply wishing for something that I dreamed up myself.

Ray
I was responding more to the ongoing mantra that a new camera should always perform better than the preceding generation in every respect.
This is based on if wished were horses not reality, and is completely separate from a camera not performing up to it's published specification.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 01-29-2011 at 06:49 PM.
01-29-2011, 06:48 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Hound Tooth Quote
You know what really stands out to me in this thread? The number of people who casually dismiss all the reported defects as "statistical noise" just because it doesn't affect them. Instead of being concerned that a huge quantity of fellow Pentaxians got hosed with a stained sensor and have had to suffer through a slow, frustrating exchange period, the apologists just sit there and pretend like it's a meaningless concern.

One could as easily turn this around and not believe the number of people who can't accept the reality that sometimes a flawed product hits the market and can't seem to get a handle on the fact that they have recourse through the warranty process (which is what I'll be using on my K5 at some point), and that this is probably the better way to deal with it than several thousand missives all saying more or less the same thing on various forums.
At some point, accept that the company has got the message and just send your cameras back, either for replacement, repair or refund if you have one, wait until the bugs are ironed out if you don't, or go buy something else.
Fer the love of Pete, Pentax has manned up and apologized, why can't we man up and accept it?
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