[JeffJS]

Ok Rupert, here you go..

K7 DA*16-50







K20d Same lens.







K20d FA77 f1.8 Limited





K7 DA*55 f1:1.4



K20d IR, Same lens (see single in February for more)



K7 FA*85 f1.4

[Christine Tham]

OK. Here's a shot from my camera, showing perfect focus at EV2.8:


And here's another one, showing FF at EV2.2:


Those are torture tests designed to reveal whether the camera has an FF issue in low light. The results seem to be that the K-5 will start to FF at around EV2.5 or lower.

However, the lighting is so dim the AF assist light kept wanting to switch on (which would of course fix the FF).

So the question is how realistic are those shooting conditions?

Personally, I would never take any shots under those conditions (lens wide open, extremely shallow DOF, very dim light). The Canon EOS-1D actually fails to lock focus at around these conditions.

I would definitely be interested to see a good shot under these conditions from any camera.

[Rupert]

Thanks Jeff...exactly what I asked for! Those are good shots and I can see that you would not want to be without that range.
For my Squirrels, I seldom need that ability, I can and often do, ask them to move to better light for portraiture....they usually comply...all except Otis. He will, but you have to bribe him.....

Otis flashing gang signs...I hate it when he does that!

[JeffJS]

Jeff, that is an excellent point, and one I keep overlooking. Focus is obtained at the largest aperture, so even at F8, your camera would be mis-focusing using the wide open setting. This is a problem...only a fully manual lens like my 645's would not be affected if set at F4 or more, right? Of course, that is a problem in low light, and one reason my very excellent 645 120Macro is so hard to use on my K20D......at F16 it is impossible to see well enough to focus unless you are in very bright light.
Regards

That's pretty much my point.

[Christine Tham]

Thanks Jeff...exactly what I asked for! Those are good shots and I can see that you would not want to be without that range.

Problem is they are all high DOF shots. Under those conditions, any small FF problem will be masked by the DOF.

As you can see from my photos, which are also high DOF, but not as high as JeffJS's, no focusing problems are apparent.

The issue is how realistic are low DOF photos in dim light?

[Rupert]

OK. Here's a shot from my camera, showing perfect focus at EV2.8:


And here's another one, showing FF at EV2.2:


Those are torture tests designed to reveal whether the camera has an FF issue in low light. The results seem to be that the K-5 will start to FF at around EV2.5 or lower.

However, the lighting is so dim the AF assist light kept wanting to switch on (which would of course fix the FF).

So the question is how realistic are those shooting conditions?

Personally, I would never take any shots under those conditions (lens wide open, extremely shallow DOF, very dim light). The Canon EOS-1D actually fails to lock focus at around these conditions.

I would definitely be interested to see a good shot under these conditions from any camera.

Christine, if all K5's could do that, we would not have a problem, would we? Good example of a focus defect free K5, but not an example of 'What we are missing?" Unless of course you would frame and hang a shot of batteries....but it might be a winner, even a best seller! I always think of that can of soup......worth millions, and to me it was just something to go in the trash!
Best Regards

[donallison13]

Uhhh....ohhhhh....K20D focuses better than the K-5. You can't be saying that on this Forum. The fanboys will get ya. Personally, I'm getting tired of reading all the various problems with the K-5. I'm just gonna order me one and then keep sending it back to B&H like my good friend Al until I get a good working copy.

[Christine Tham]

Christine, if all K5's could do that, we would not have a problem, would we? Good example of a focus defect free K5, but not an example of 'What we are missing?" Unless of course you would frame and hang a shot of batteries....but it might be a winner, even a best seller! I always think of that can of soup......worth millions, and to me it was just something to go in the trash!
Best Regards

I think you are violently agreeing with me, because I am also saying that outside the domain of torture tests, I can't think of a good example of a low DOF low light photo.

As for my photos, you can clearly see it's not "defect free" K-5 - if it was, it would be focusing perfectly down to EV1 or EV0.

But the slight error it makes at around EV2-2.5 is acceptable I think, and well within the parameters of what a decent camera should be able to achieve. Remember, most SLR cameras have problems focusing in low light.

[JeffJS]

Thanks Jeff...exactly what I asked for! Those are good shots and I can see that you would not want to be without that range.
For my Squirrels, I seldom need that ability, I can and often do, ask them to move to better light for portraiture....they usually comply...all except Otis. He will, but you have to bribe him.....

Otis flashing gang signs...I hate it when he does that!

I have other ways of motivating squirrels into different lighting..





He gets pretty brave when he's 40 feet away on the other side of a fence.



Back to regular programming.

[Rupert]

I think you are violently agreeing with me, because I am also saying that outside the domain of torture tests, I can't think of a good example of a low DOF low light photo.

As for my photos, you can clearly see it's not "defect free" K-5 - if it was, it would be focusing perfectly down to EV1 or EV0.

But the slight error it makes at around EV2-2.5 is acceptable I think, and well within the parameters of what a decent camera should be able to achieve. Remember, most SLR cameras have problems focusing in low light.

Not exactly, I am not a violent person, unless violently attacked, and you sure haven't done that!

What I am saying is that if people are missing low light shots because of this problem, defect, or whatever a someone prefers to call it, then just post some decent examples from your past where you got the shots with a previous camera, any make or model, that you say you can't get with the K5...I just want to see what kind of shots they are?

Sounds easy enough to me? So if any of the devastated shooters can post them, here is your chance to show us what you are missing. Looks to me like this thread would be full of them...but so far it isn't, is it?

If my K5 (if I had one) would not shoot color shots, and I posted a thread asking for someone to show me how their previous cameras could shoot color, this thread would be 20 pages long within an hour. Agree?

I'm not saying the FF issue is not a problem, it is, but where are those shots that people are missing? Maybe it really isn't that big a problem? Just asking........I have questions, but no answers in the form of those photos I asked for.....

Best Regards

[Kryosphinx]

snip...

I'm not saying the FF issue is not a problem, it is, but where are those shots that people are missing? Maybe it really isn't that big a problem? Just asking........I have questions, but no answers in the form of those photos I asked for.....

snip

I haven't been following the other threads, so let me get this straight. People are complaining because of FF issues in low low light, claiming that they're "missing" these shots because of the K-5. But you're contending that there are no cameras that would nail these anyway, so they're only missing what a hypothetical camera could deliver.

Is this basically another instance of people setting their expectations too high and then griping when they find out their camera's limits, or is this an actual issue with the camera, (one that other cameras don't have)?

[Zugzwang]

Not exactly, I am not a violent person, unless violently attacked, and you sure haven't done that!

What I am saying is that if people are missing low light shots because of this problem, defect, or whatever a someone prefers to call it, then just post some decent examples from your past where you got the shots with a previous camera, any make or model, that you say you can't get with the K5...I just want to see what kind of shots they are?

Sounds easy enough to me? So if any of the devastated shooters can post them, here is your chance to show us what you are missing. Looks to me like this thread would be full of them...but so far it isn't, is it?

If my K5 (if I had one) would not shoot color shots, and I posted a thread asking for someone to show me how their previous cameras could shoot color, this thread would be 20 pages long within an hour. Agree?

I'm not saying the FF issue is not a problem, it is, but where are those shots that people are missing? Maybe it really isn't that big a problem? Just asking........I have questions, but no answers in the form of those photos I asked for.....

Best Regards

OK, I'll play.

K5



K7

[Rupert]

I haven't been following the other threads, so let me get this straight. People are complaining because of FF issues in low low light, claiming that they're "missing" these shots because of the K-5. But you're contending that there are no cameras that would nail these anyway, so they're only missing what a hypothetical camera could deliver.

Is this basically another instance of people setting their expectations too high and then griping when they find out their camera's limits, or is this an actual issue with the camera, (one that other cameras don't have)?

Excellent summation, and one of the few here that actually reads the post before responding! The only error is that I am

" claiming that they're "missing" these shots because of the K-5. But you're contending that there are no cameras that would nail these anyway, so they're only missing what a hypothetical camera could deliver."



I am not making any claims because I don't know the answer to that question. I posted this to give those that have had their lives destroyed by this "defect" to post examples of their work at this low light level, and only a precious few have been posted, so to date I have to assume that the actual effect on the vast majority of shooters is highly insignificant. If someone disagrees, post those shots right here! We're watching for them!

Similar to "my Camera won't toast bread".....so show me some toast from your camera that did, and also tell me how often you made toast with it? I am not saying it is not a problem, it is, but is it "life threatening"? Apparently it is not even an option that is used to any appreciable degree.....where are those photos? There should be pages of them, shouldn't there?
Best Regards

[JeffJS]

I guess I misunderstood your original point as well (somewhat). The shots I posted from other cameras are definitely doable with the K5. In spite of the opinion of some that it's DOF that gives me the shots in the cases of the photos I posted, I can assure that the spots I aimed for in focus, are dead on with one possible exception. I Can show, as you earlier pointed out, many shots I could do with the K5 that were not as (cleanly) possible with the other cameras. No, the K5 won't make toast but neither will the others.

[SpecialK]

Unfortunately, this thread really requires 2 shots - the one you got with another camera, and essentially the same shot or conditions not gotten with the K-5. Otherwise, what are we looking at (or not)?