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03-16-2011, 11:51 PM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Talk is cheap for those on the sidelines especially when they aren't prepared to pony up any money.
Guys, you seem to be a bit oversensitive.
There is no denying that the K-5 has been a "green banana" that had to ripe in the customer's hand.
Remember the update regarding number of shots before the buffer overflowed? Is it good that customers had to go through multiple K-5's till they got one that was stain-free? Is it normal to buy a camera that learns to focus in low-light only after months? Is the problem with flash exposures an unimportant one?

Note that BillO has a K-7 already and wrote elsewhere "I have no doubt there is a K5 in my future somewhere.". I'm also pretty sure that I'll have a K-5 pretty soon. Does that mean I need to agree to what the standard of QC nowadays seems to be (not a Pentax only problem)? I don't think so.

03-17-2011, 12:04 AM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Guys, you seem to be a bit oversensitive.
There is no denying that the K-5 has been a "green banana" that had to ripe in the customer's hand.
Remember the update regarding number of shots before the buffer overflowed? Is it good that customers had to go through multiple K-5's till they got one that was stain-free? Is it normal to buy a camera that learns to focus in low-light only after months? Is the problem with flash exposures an unimportant one?

Note that BillO has a K-7 already and wrote elsewhere "I have no doubt there is a K5 in my future somewhere.". I'm also pretty sure that I'll have a K-5 pretty soon. Does that mean I need to agree to what the standard of QC nowadays seems to be (not a Pentax only problem)? I don't think so.
LMAO..thats a good analogy

I only queried Bilo post..as it seemed to come from no where...Just interested in the motive.....not doubt the K5 has had a rocky start....Im hopeful for plain sailing from here on out ...and Id love to see the back of these Posts to be frank , as most will agree the K5 is now fixed and time to let the poor thing off the hook!

the last few days have seen the forum return to some short of equilibrium...with Members that previously sort a FF fix with enthusiasm , now being subdued with FW 1.03...others that have handled the K5 for the first time ..also are less critical now ..be nice to drop the whole thing and move on..take wheatys advice and use the warranty if needed...or my advice and buy a K5 and start shooting and perhaps that will stop the bitterness non K5 owners have !!

Last edited by Tommot1965; 03-17-2011 at 12:10 AM.
03-17-2011, 02:04 AM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
Im hopeful for plain sailing from here on out
Same here. I think there is still a flash problem to be addressed but I personally don't care if that ever gets fixed or not.

I'm not a 100% sure the firmware update entirely fixed the FF issue; there are some disconcerting reports about remaining FF and the AF being inconsistent when AF adjustments are dialed in. However, I reckon that it is now possible to get a K-5 copy that has no focus issues in most practical situations.

I'm looking forward to Falk's update on his low-light study and also to buying a K-5.
03-17-2011, 03:08 AM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'm with BillO on this one. They keyword is "according to specification". If Pentax doesn't want customers to expect the AF to work in -1 EV they shouldn't promise it.

I also don't see why anyone should be happy (or "adult about it") when a camera that they upgrade to does things worse than the camera they had before and which can be purchased for a lot less by now (-> P-TTL flash issues).

I agree that one should not have unrealistic expectations (e.g., expect the AF performance of a top of the range Canon from SAFOX IX) but it is entirely reasonable to expect the product to meet its specification. If customers didn't vote with their feet against QC issues like sensor stains, unreasonable FF, and flash issues, that, AFAIC, would send the wrong message to manufacturers.
Is BillO's point that the individual camera he buys should be able to function well, or is it that there should be no cameras ever released from Pentax factories that require servicing? I am unclear. Because if it is the first, I agree, cameras should perform up to spec, but on the other hand, Pentax (or any other camera company) will never achieve 100 percent of its cameras delivered to users to be completely free of defect and not require adjustment. The important thing in that second situation is that they fix the issues quickly, under warranty.

When I purchased my K20, it had some time of internal issue that made it lock up periodically (I know people say that the K20 had no flaws, but there were several others that reported something similar on the forum). I sent it in and had it fixed. It has worked fine since that point and I never posted anything about it, one way or the other on the forum. Pentax did their job and I was pleased and trust that if I bought a K5 that was not working appropriately, I could send it and they would take care of whatever issue there was.


Last edited by Rondec; 03-17-2011 at 04:41 AM.
03-17-2011, 04:03 AM   #275
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QuoteQuote:
The only option you have is to not buy anything.
Ever.
Otherwise, accept that sometimes flaws happen, even with the best of intentions, and make use of your warranty.
It's not about being a pushover, it's about being an adult.


QuoteQuote:
That is really patronising. You've no need to adopt such a superior attitude just because you disagree with another poster's POV.

Sure ... from time to time products have flaws. But to imply that someone is childish because they complain about those flaws is a stance that paints you in a distasteful light. I'm giving a rep to BillO that is taken from your tally.
I think that a little cooling off might be warranted.
Mods have received reports on the trend this thread is taking, so guys, stick to the subject and do so in a friendly and respectful manner else the thread may have to be closed.

Thanks.
03-17-2011, 04:51 AM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
...They keyword is "according to specification". If Pentax doesn't want customers to expect the AF to work in -1 EV they shouldn't promise it.

This is it precisely. If Pentax promise a certain specification and hang a price on that, then I should expect that if I pay that price, the specification will be met.

I am a long-time and (overly) loyal Pentax user. When I bought my ESII, it did what they said it would. Ditto for my LX. It was not until the PZ-1 that things were not entirely up to snuff, but it shortcomings were minor compared to what we are asked to contend with today. The Z1-p was back on track.

Things really started to go astray with the *istD. The biggest problem with it for me was the performance of P-TTL flash. An issue that is still not fixed today. It is next to useless on my K10D and K7 and from what I hear, that is carried over to the K5. At least the *istD retained TTL and it worked pretty well with the exception they took away my beloved in camera flash compensation. Now, flash on Pentax is just plain unreliable, especially at macro and long distances (where a flash extender is needed). This is based on the AF360FGZ.

I do apologise if your experience is different. It may well be as we all use our cameras differently. However, if Pentax tell me my camera will do something, it should. That includes focus accurately (still not 100% fixed) and expose flash accurately along with the rest of the spec sheet.

Last edited by BillO; 03-17-2011 at 05:11 AM.
03-17-2011, 05:10 AM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Is BillO's point that the individual camera he buys should be able to function well, or is it that there should be no cameras ever released from Pentax factories that require servicing? I am unclear. Because if it is the first, I agree, cameras should perform up to spec, but on the other hand, Pentax (or any other camera company) will never achieve 100 percent of its cameras delivered to users to be completely free of defect and not require adjustment. The important thing in that second situation is that they fix the issues quickly, under warranty.
Yes, the first one. Some minor flaws are acceptable as long as the company acknowledges them and address them quickly at zero cost to the purchaser. However, to me, some of the flaws reported on the K5 were serious. Did they not test it before shipping it? As a wildlife photographer I am forced to work in less than desirable light conditions all the time. That front focus problem would make my life very difficult. From what I can see in the associated thread, it's still not fixed.

From what I read, it took Pentax some time to acknowledge this problem too. That is unforgivable. Tamron did that to me with their 300/2.8 in Pentax AF mount. The lens seriously back focuses. They never admitted the problem and never fixed it. That was a $3000 lens. It works well in MF and I still use it, however, I never received what I paid for. That is a problem. I feel the same way about P-TTL on Pentax.

So, the situation is that companies are selling use promises these days. ‘Here is a list of specifications that we’ll try at some pint to deliver, but it may take a long time or may take a new product, or we may just drop it.’ What it comes down to is, if we as customers keep accepting the situation, these companies will keep delivering it, or worse, delivering even less as we become accustomed to things.

I’m not asking every one to follow my lead, but if everyone did, and plopped their flawed products back down on the retailers counter for refund, things just might change for the better.
03-17-2011, 05:13 AM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
There is no denying that the K-5 has been a "green banana" that had to ripe in the customer's hand.


03-17-2011, 05:33 AM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
not sure why you posted this?

most of us have full functioning $1500 cameras now ...

whats the motive behind the rant?...or do you just feel like blowing off some steam
Valid question.

Just I think as a buying public we deserve a bit more. After all, we're the ones putting all those millions in the pockets of the corporate executives. However, this fact does not seem to be reflected in the care these companies expend to see that we get our money’s worth.

I may not be speaking for everyone, but I do buy cameras based on their specifications. I mostly do wildlife and motor sports photography so I have certain requirements. Low light focussing accuracy is extremely important. Reliable flash exposure is extremely important. Great high ISO performance is extremely important. High frame rate is a real advantage as is good buffer performance. Fast (optically) super-telephoto lens support is extremely important.

The lens support does not seem to be getting better. In fact Pentax are going backward in this respect. However, given the type of photography I do the spec list on the K5 was great news. Only thing is, many of these features were crippled in the first version off the self. Still a few of them have still not been delivered yet. So, I’m a little miffed but I do consider myself lucky that I waited.

I have no doubt the next model from Pentax will be even better, but I already have a K7 and the K5 would be a perfect companion to it as they share a similar layout and accessories. If Pentax follow their usual MO, the next model will be a different platform. I feel sure they will fix most of the serious K5 problems someday. I’ll buy my K5 then.

…Then there is the P-TTL. Do you think we will ever get decent flash exposure again? Well, I certainly can and do work around that, as I am fairly adept with manual flash. However, I am paying for it. I think it should be delivered.
03-17-2011, 05:34 AM   #280
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yawn......

heard it all before mate..daily, weekly monthly

if your so convinced that "Things really started to go astray with the *istD" and that "Now, flash on Pentax is just plain unreliable",,why may I ask you still use such a flawed Brand...then Join a forum to moan about them... sorry I just cant see the Logic......


I joined PF to find people with more experience than me..to ask questions and to share my limited experience....mind you PF does have a lot of users, so different agendas are bound to pop up when we have such a melting pot


. ....take care and have a nice day...
03-17-2011, 05:50 AM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The only option you have is to not buy anything.
Ever.
I don't agree. At least not in a general sense. There are still many companies that sell extremely well made and tested products. We, as customers, have allowed the camera industry the freedom to put products with undocumented functional flaws in our hands.


QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Otherwise, accept that sometimes flaws happen, even with the best of intentions, and make use of your warranty.
Okay. Minor flaws, those that do not effect product functionality or delivery of the specified performance, are acceptable. Examples, logo falls off, battery compartment cover is difficult to release, ease of use issues, etc... These sorts of things are to be expected occasionally and they need not be tested for or documented. On the other hand, releasing a product that is rendered non-functional for some of its claimed uses, however, is not acceptable, unless it is released with these issues fully documented as 'known issues'. That way the customer can make up their own mind about whether to purchase now (because the ‘known issues’ will not affect them), or wait until they are fixed. Testing a product like the K5 to see if it meets specifications should not be a difficult task.

My last job was VP of product support for a large international company. I honestly do know of what I speak.


QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
It's not about being a pushover, it's about being an adult.
Interesting position.
03-17-2011, 06:07 AM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
yawn......

heard it all before mate..daily, weekly monthly
Well, if my opinion is shared with so many, can it be that far off?

BTW mate, you asked.

QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
if your so convinced that "Things really started to go astray with the *istD" and that "Now, flash on Pentax is just plain unreliable",,why may I ask you still use such a flawed Brand...then Join a forum to moan about them... sorry I just cant see the Logic......
Yes, you can ask. I have a lot invested in the brand. Back when they delivered what they promised, I spent tens of thousands of dollars on lenses and other items specific to the brand.

Personally I have wrestled with 'the logic' of dumping all of this equipment and starting anew. It’s been close at times, but the economics of a move like that bring my emotions back to earth. Quick answer, I guess I’m a bit trapped.


It should also be noted that I do not think the alternatives are any better. I'm not that deluded (yet). This is an industry wide problem at least and may be further reaching than that.

BTW, I'm not moaning about them. Just expressing an opinion. You can ignore it if it is not one you share.


QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
I joined PF to find people with more experience than me..to ask questions and to share my limited experience....mind you PF does have a lot of users, so different agendas are bound to pop up when we have such a melting pot
Absolutely. See my other posts in this thread. I agree completely and a lot of the problems with these cameras over the years may indeed not have affect some users at all. That does not change anything though, does it? QC is still not being done properly, products with undocumented functional flaws are still being delivered. To me, this is not acceptable.




QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
....take care and have a nice day...
You too.

Last edited by BillO; 03-17-2011 at 06:35 AM.
03-17-2011, 08:39 AM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by BillO Quote
I don't agree. At least not in a general sense. There are still many companies that sell extremely well made and tested products. We, as customers, have allowed the camera industry the freedom to put products with undocumented functional flaws in our hands.




Okay. Minor flaws, those that do not effect product functionality or delivery of the specified performance, are acceptable. Examples, logo falls off, battery compartment cover is difficult to release, ease of use issues, etc... These sorts of things are to be expected occasionally and they need not be tested for or documented. On the other hand, releasing a product that is rendered non-functional for some of its claimed uses, however, is not acceptable, unless it is released with these issues fully documented as 'known issues'. That way the customer can make up their own mind about whether to purchase now (because the ‘known issues’ will not affect them), or wait until they are fixed. Testing a product like the K5 to see if it meets specifications should not be a difficult task.

My last job was VP of product support for a large international company. I honestly do know of what I speak.




Interesting position.
I'm sure you do think you know of what you speak, but my experience over the past 4 decades of product use, especially cameras tells me that products rolling off an assembly line are bound to have the occasional flaw.
Compound that with the consumer's absolute refusal to pay what is required to allow for 100% quality control and in depth testing to destruction to ensure than no bad things happen, and every now and again, a flawed product is going to find it's way into the hands of users.
In a market where people will switch brands or choose brands based on a price difference of a few dollars, the manufacturer is offered very few choices regarding cutting costs.
As an ex VP of product support for a large international company, I am sure you would have a pretty good idea of where companies can cut costs to put a competitively priced product on the market.
03-17-2011, 08:50 AM   #284
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This started out as a thread about firmware. At least I think it was; it's been a while since that was the focus of the discussion.
closed
03-18-2011, 05:23 AM   #285
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I have re opened this. Those of you who wish to discuss the actual topic may resume doing so. Those of you who wish to just slap each other around for having a different opinion than your own, are encuraged to exercise better judgment and better impulse control.
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