Originally posted by jsherman999 I think that might be an exercise in futility, because you're dealing with all kinds of photographers at all different skill levels. It may draw you to a false conclusion or make you think that no difference can ever be discerned.
I think you're discounting the personal nature of photography a bit too much - what should be important to you is how a format change would change your images, how it could enhance them (or not) or give you a bigger range of options in DOF control and shutter speed at equivalent noise levels. It's going to be hard to judge that by looking at a series of random images from different photographers.
First, I want to thank you for remaining civil and reasonable. For my part there is a slight bit of "Devil's Advocate" involved, but not entirely. I'm still sussing out how I feel about it - and it's not a trivial thing, the FF vs APS/C - and you're getting the arguments I pose myself for "FF is not relevant to me".
In comparisons of images, I paid close attention to things like: is it a 'good' image? Is it properly focused, properly exposed, is the f-stop and shutter speed comparable? is there motion blur? - When comparing FF images with APS/C.
I completely agree with what you're saying about how the format can affect the way
you work, and see, and interact with your system. I'm not challenging that in any way.
Quote: I probably wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference between 50 shots taken by someone else with the Zeiss 35 and the new DA 35 f/2.4 if they were randomly assorted - however I know that if I shot the Zeiss along side the (actually very good) 35 2.4, I'd probably prefer my output from the Zeiss.
Mmm.. that's a toughie. I'm a Zeiss fan from the jump (Used to shoot Hasselblad for that reason), but the very reason I chose Pentax was that, among the Japanese manufacturers, they come closest to that Zeiss/Leica/Schneider "look". My FA 35mm F2 is virtually indistinguishable from the output of the Distagon T* 35mm f2 ZK lens. The Zeiss has *slightly* better controlled flare, and the FA has *slightly* higher resolution at moderate f-numbers. The Zeiss is better in the corners, but not enough to see at anything less than 100%. Contrast (when light source is not in frame) is virtually identical, including local contrast. In the end I chose to keep the FA because I don't tie up money in names, only performance. If the 35mm 2.4 DA is in fact the same lens (as some have asserted) it might be a close call in a blind test. If we're talking "feel", of course, in the hand, the Zeiss wins hands down - it's a work of art.
Quote: This argument makes the difference between, say, the FA Limiteds and the regular FA line 'moot' also. At equivalent apertures, you rarely would be able to tell the difference betwen random shots taken with the FA 43ltd and the FA 50 1.7. But if you, yourself shot both and compared the output, you'd most likely prefer the 43 (in most cases.)
I think that is my argument. If I can't tell the difference in images, then the only relevance is my personal preference; it has nothing to do with the technical claims surrounding the lenses, and everything to do with the way I 'feel' when I look through it. I had the 35mm F2.8Ltd macro, and frankly, the FA 35mm f2 *spanks* it in day-to-day use. I decided it *was* moot, and sold it here on the forums. Yeah, it was heavy, and felt nice, but it's a lot of cash to tie up in aesthetics that don't affect the final image. (And yes, the ltd was a macro, but the Schneider D Xenon 100mm f2.8 macro - the samsung lens - was sharper and had better working distance at the same magnification).
Quote: Objective relevance - you might be able to get there more accurately by just considering the numbers, and extrapolating from that how relevant they would be to your photography: 1.3 stops DOF control at equivalent FOV and aperture, and currently between 1.5 and .7 stops better ISO performance, depending on who's measuring.
As far as I was concerned, the FF 'look' wasn't at the top of my list, I basically just wanted really fast AF and at least a stop better ISO performance - these things were really valuable for what I was shooting. Where I find the DOF control valuable is that, if I want to, I can stop down to aps-c equiv DOF and gain an extra 1.3 stops of sharpness on the target. I rarely am looking to get the absolute minimum DOF (although that's available.)
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So what if I want *more* DOF instead of less? This is one of the things about FF advocates (I'm not trying to paint you with that brush; I'm just trying to address it with someone who is reasonable) that amazes me. Go to the Nikon FX forums, or the Canon FF forums, and suggest you want greater DOF; they'll then present to you an argument that shows how the APS/C format has *less* depth of field. I'm not kidding.
I get it, really I do. You have a vision, and it allows you to reach that vision more... directly. That's far from the question, though, of "can you make the same image with an APS/C camera".
In the film days, I always used MF when possible, unless the client would pay for 4x5 - but I was a commercial photographer, and now I'm a systems engineer who is a photographic hobbyist. Furthermore, I satisfied myself with my K20D that unless I was shooting Velvia or Elite ISO 50, my K20D produced prints that were as good as the ones from my Hassy. I suspect that if I were to repeat that test, the K-5 supercedes both of those, as well. I also suspect that FF is *not* as different from APS/C as my Hassy was from my Canon gear. But being a techno-geek, I still wonder, and I don't want to have to buy a FF system to prove it to myself.