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06-04-2011, 07:31 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
Even the K-x/K-r have this.
My point in posting that isnt that it did or didnt have it. My point was that there was a reason the other dial couldnt be there. It was an ergonomics issue that was being discussed.

You cant say the better sensor makes the better camera, unless its like a night and day difference and these 2 are very close.

If you say that just because the sensor is slightly better, then you can say the slightly better engine makes the better motorcycle. Well, being that I owned both the K5 and 7d AND ive owned a GSXR1300 (Hayabusa) and a GSXR1000, I can tell you the busa has a better engine, but there is a REASON you dont see ANY hayabusa racing on a GP track, cuz a 1000 would eat its lunch. Yet put then in a straight line and the busa smokes the 1000.

SOOO as i commented before, look at the camera as a whole, not pick a few features and call it a done deal and MOST importantly, look at the job you want to do and then chose the camera to fit that need.

Having both the K5 and 7d, the 7d is better at video AND better at sports shots and does portraits JUST as well as a k5, hence the reason you dont see many if any K5's used by top Pro SportsShooters. If I were just doing portraits, there would be no reason to go with a 7d.

My K5 with my da* 16-50 was amazing, as was the other two da*'s i owned. BUT my 7d with my 70-200L 2.8 blows the k5 and da* 60-250 away in performance alone and tracking when Im shooting fast action and the pictures are just as amazing as the k5.

I also thought Id never use video, but now that Ive gotten into that world, its nice to have the 7d with all that it can do, again, what the k5 cant do.

So try and keep an open mind, like so many on here complain that all the other canikon sites do not and look at the camera as a whole and the job your going to use it for, then judge.

06-06-2011, 07:02 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Your criteria for what a dslr should be is just that, your opinion. I have a different opinion and different needs. I had 2 top priorities for my recent purchase;
A. It must have the best low light performance available in order for me to use it to shoot sometimes dark theatre scenes - which i do often in an official capacity.

B. It must have a quiet shutter.

My K5 meet both of those criteria in the price range i was willing to pay. The K5 has been very successful in my first 4 months of usage. I've gotten compliments from customers and professional staff from the first play rehearsals that i've used the camera on. I've never had a 7D, but the PF review would indicate that the K5 iso performance exceeds that of 7D starting at 1600 iso where it holds more detail. I routinely set my maximum iso at 12,800.

And i love that quiet shutter. When i'm backstage taking candid pictures, i'm not distracting staff from their work.
and those are the criteria that are important to "you"

I shot consistently at 1600iso with the K10D (the iso where the K10D is supposed to perform terribly) and have had many shots published in mags over here.

At the end of the day my criteria (mentioned earlier) still stands and hence I did not purchase the K5 and went to another brand which did.

Nor did I purchase the 7D as I felt it was just a bit too large for my tastes
06-06-2011, 07:46 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
and those are the criteria that are important to "you"

I shot consistently at 1600iso with the K10D (the iso where the K10D is supposed to perform terribly) and have had many shots published in mags over here.

At the end of the day my criteria (mentioned earlier) still stands and hence I did not purchase the K5 and went to another brand which did.

Nor did I purchase the 7D as I felt it was just a bit too large for my tastes
I think people blow up the differences between these cameras. I can tell you that size difference is pretty big, but otherwise, a professional who knows what he is doing will be able to get the shots he needs with any of these cameras.

I really think the reasons to go with Canon/Nikon come down to two things: (1) Will you want lenses that Pentax doesn't offer (particularly longer lenses) (2) Do you want to get a full frame camera some day. If the answer to these is no, then Pentax will likely be more than adequate to meet your needs.

It really does come down to ergonomics, which is a very personal thing. There is no arguing over taste or, ergonomics. Still, I like the K5/K7 body style much better than the 7D/D7000.
06-06-2011, 08:18 AM   #109
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Not many people use dlsr in professional way. That says many people might weigh apperance more important than function. when I choose d7000, 60d and k-5. I rule out d7000 and 60d eventually, one factor is that k-5 just look better than others.

Since they are at same level cameras, if one do not have specfic demand of the camera, I think the apperance really play big role in choosing which camera to go.
I admit the apperance is a matter of preference. but I would assume more people like the apperance of k-5 more than d7000 and 60d or others. I asked many of my friends which one look better, they all come to agree with k-5.

This phenomenon becomes more obvious in entry-level dslr. many people choose k-x or k-r simply for its apperance. people do not know what they really demand. so many entry-level dslr out there. nobody can really say one is really better than another. so how do some people come down to choose the right dslr for them? The one looks better...

I am not saying this apply to every people, but that's true many people would choose a dslr hugely based on apperance. You can not say these people are ignorant..This is just the way it is.
so I have to say pentax is good at this point...


Last edited by liukaitc; 06-06-2011 at 08:53 AM.
06-06-2011, 08:48 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by patriotap Quote
My point in posting that isnt that it did or didnt have it. My point was that there was a reason the other dial couldnt be there. It was an ergonomics issue that was being discussed.

My apologies, I focused on the 126 words explaining what back button autofocus seemingly to people who have never used it, instead of the 54 words used to make your point.

You cant say the better sensor makes the better camera, unless its like a night and day difference and these 2 are very close.

They are very close unless you do a lot of push processing:

Nikon DX vs Canon APS-C: Dynamic Range | TestCams.com

The two cameras here are different from the ones being discussed, but the sensors aren't.

Of course, if you don't use this, it's not on your priority list and doesn't matter.



SOOO as i commented before, look at the camera as a whole, not pick a few features and call it a done deal and MOST importantly, look at the job you want to do and then chose the camera to fit that need.

Well said

Having both the K5 and 7d, the 7d is better at video AND better at sports shots and does portraits JUST as well as a k5, hence the reason you dont see many if any K5's used by top Pro SportsShooters. If I were just doing portraits, there would be no reason to go with a 7d.

That's not the main reason why you don't see them. You don't see them because of lens availability and pro support, IMHO. That's why you don't see them much even with portrait shooters.

My K5 with my da* 16-50 was amazing, as was the other two da*'s i owned. BUT my 7d with my 70-200L 2.8 blows the k5 and da* 60-250 away in performance alone and tracking when Im shooting fast action and the pictures are just as amazing as the k5.

USM is awesome, no doubt about it. SDM sucks. Then there's the algorithms and low light focus which is the reason I returned the K-5 and am waiting for the next body.

I also thought Id never use video, but now that Ive gotten into that world, its nice to have the 7d with all that it can do, again, what the k5 cant do.

Agreed again, Canon simply is much better at video. Pentax could've been really nice with it's SR as a built-in steady cam, but too bad.

So try and keep an open mind, like so many on here complain that all the other canikon sites do not and look at the camera as a whole and the job your going to use it for, then judge.
From an ergonomic view, I, along with many others, don't like the placement of the dials. However, we are used to using Pentax/Nikon style dials. My friend is a Canon shooter and notes that he certainly holes the camera different, with his hand rotated back more to fit the dials. Didn't have enough time to really gave it a chance, though I did like the feel of the body over the K-5 otherwise, though then I couldn't fit it with a pancake in my very small bag on my hip.

Last edited by Eruditass; 06-06-2011 at 10:05 AM.
06-09-2011, 04:44 AM   #111
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lousy video implementation is hurting Pentax and the K5
08-22-2011, 12:07 AM   #112
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Hi Adam,
ahead i want to say thank you for your help !

ilast weekend i go oput for making panorama pics !
i bought therefore a Novoflex ProII Adapter and i owned a K5 since 6 month now.
so i installed everyting as followed:
1. I set the frame with ~ 35% overlapping ( thats secondary )
2. i set the modus on `M´ so i can see the histgram in the LV Display.
3 i checked the EV Value
4. my whitebalance is on dayligt
5. and the AF is disabled
6. and the AE-L is in charge ( on:-)

i made 6 or 7 pics and the result is from picture to picture different
you can stitch it together but photoshop cs5 can´t delete the differencies between the single pics
i can´t explain it in more detail my english comes to an end . i ´m from germany :-)

is there a usermistake from my side...cause with my K10 and then with my K20 it s working simply good.

thx for answering !

Regards

dixie
the first
08-22-2011, 12:11 AM   #113
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Hi Adam,
before I would say, thank you for your help!
lst
weekend I am going to produce panoramic pics!
I bought a Novoflex adapter ProII and I had a K5 for 6 months now.
so i installed everyting as follows:
1st I have the frame with ~ 35% overlap (thats secondary)
2nd I have the mode to `M ', so I can see in the LV histgram display.
3 i checked the EV value
4th my white balance on dayligt
5th and the AF is disabled
6th and the AE-L is responsible (on :-)

I have 6 or 7 pics and the result is different from image to image
You can stitch together, but Photoshop CS5 can not delete the differences between images
I can not explain in detail my English is low. i 'm from Germany :-)

there is a usermistake by my side ... for with my K10 and then with my K20, it's working just fine.

thx for answering!

regards

dixie
the first

Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste
Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste
Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste
Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste


08-22-2011, 03:32 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by dixie Quote
Hi Adam,
before I would say, thank you for your help!
lst
weekend I am going to produce panoramic pics!
I bought a Novoflex adapter ProII and I had a K5 for 6 months now.
so i installed everyting as follows:
1st I have the frame with ~ 35% overlap (thats secondary)
2nd I have the mode to `M ', so I can see in the LV histgram display.
3 i checked the EV value
4th my white balance on dayligt
5th and the AF is disabled
6th and the AE-L is responsible (on :-)

I have 6 or 7 pics and the result is different from image to image
You can stitch together, but Photoshop CS5 can not delete the differences between images
I can not explain in detail my English is low. i 'm from Germany :-)

there is a usermistake by my side ... for with my K10 and then with my K20, it's working just fine.

thx for answering!

regards

dixie
the first

Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste
Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste
Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste
Hallo Adam,
vor möchte ich sagen, ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!

ilast Wochenende gehe ich OPUT für die Herstellung Panorama pics!
Ich kaufte also ein Novoflex Adapter ProII und besaß ich eine K5 seit 6 Monate jetzt.
so i installiert everyting wie folgt:
1. Ich habe die Rahmen mit ~ 35% Überlappung (thats sekundär)
2. Ich habe die modus auf `M ', so kann ich die histgram in der LV Anzeige zu sehen.
3 i überprüft die EV Wert
4. meine Weißabgleich auf dayligt
5. und die AF deaktiviert ist
6. und die AE-L ist verantwortlich (auf :-)

Ich habe 6 oder 7 pics und das Ergebnis ist von Bild zu Bild unterschiedlich
Sie können Stich zusammen, aber Photoshop CS5 nicht löschen können, die Unterschiede zwischen den einzelnen Bildern
Ich kann es nicht erklären näher mein Englisch zu Ende geht. i 'm aus Deutschland :-)

gibt es eine usermistake von meiner Seite ... denn mit meinem K10 und dann mit meiner K20 es s arbeiten einfach gut.

thx für die Beantwortung!

Grüße

dixie
das erste
Sweet! Nothing like repetition to make a point.
08-22-2011, 09:07 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by bfo Quote
From the comparison: ...."Ergonomics are essentially a draw and, as always, really boil down to the user's preference."....

How then do you get a Ergonomics score of 7 for the 7D vs. 9 for the K-5?
User's (tester's) preference?
08-22-2011, 09:24 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
A camera test should cover EVERY situation that the said camera could be used.
Are you advocating sending camera testers to the moon or the bottom of the Mariana Trench or else their tests aren't legitimate?
QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
If I purchase an expensive top of the range dslr it must perform in every area e.g. flash, auto-focus, sport, landscape, low and high iso etc - to complete the package it must have the accessories, lens choice in all focal lengths from manufacturer easily available

The only thing against the 7D is its size, for some

That can't be said about the K5
Nope, the K5 is a lot smaller, and it also has at least 2 stops more dynamic range, which for some is more important than a lot bigger with less dynamic range
QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
Any dslr today is capable of producing superlative picture quality but when comparing dslrs from different manufacturers one has to look at the whole offering.

When someone starts out in photography they really don't always know what genre they will end up shooting.

When someone buys a 7D they are good to go with a dslr and system that can cover every situation with consummate ease without having to work "hard" at it
This is why most people change systems at least once, and sometimes quite often during the course of their photographic journey.
When a person looks at a camera system, it only needs to do what they want it to do. It doesn't have to excel at every conceivable photographic endeavor, and if by chance, it did, there is no camera system made that is up to what you are asking.
It's all well and good to say the system must be up for anything, but is it really necessary, much less possible?
I moved from Olympus to Nikon to Pentax. By your reasoning, I should not have moved to Pentax, but I found things about the Pentax system that made it more desirable than what Nikon was offering, enough so that not having as complete a system just didn't enter into it.
08-22-2011, 09:21 PM   #117
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I own both of these cameras. But I only shoot wildlife and really am not qualified to compare the two as most people shoot. But I really like the K-5 and it would be my camera of choice if Pentax made birding lenses. Also the AF on the 7D pretty much smokes the K-5 for birding, especially when using dedicated Canon lenses. I shoot with the 7d most of the time. But love the small size and overall layout of the K-5. And the IQ with Pentax K-5 is very good. I have had to move away from Pentax because of the lack of lenses. But love the K-5. Actually I am fixing to sell my Pentax lenses.. Canon and the lenses are just too good of a combo.
Really hopping the new owners will pick up the pace with Pentax. I think in 5-10 years if they do not sell again. We will see Pentax coming back. For wildlife shooters that is. My opinion. Which means squat.... LOL

Last edited by garyk; 08-22-2011 at 09:27 PM.
08-22-2011, 09:52 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by garyk Quote
I own both of these cameras. But I only shoot wildlife and really am not qualified to compare the two as most people shoot. But I really like the K-5 and it would be my camera of choice if Pentax made birding lenses. Also the AF on the 7D pretty much smokes the K-5 for birding, especially when using dedicated Canon lenses. I shoot with the 7d most of the time. But love the small size and overall layout of the K-5. And the IQ with Pentax K-5 is very good. I have had to move away from Pentax because of the lack of lenses. But love the K-5. Actually I am fixing to sell my Pentax lenses.. Canon and the lenses are just too good of a combo.
Really hopping the new owners will pick up the pace with Pentax. I think in 5-10 years if they do not sell again. We will see Pentax coming back. For wildlife shooters that is. My opinion. Which means squat.... LOL
When one stops and thinks about it, the cost of say 2 new long lenses for Ricoh could go a long way in bringing back and attracting new shooters. It would say right away to the camera crowd, we are in this to stay. Perhaps a 120-400 without any lens stabilization and a 600 and they'd be there, i think. If they are not going to build a FF right away, fine, make the wildlife shooters happy with 2 long lenses and they've gone a long way. IMO
08-22-2011, 10:26 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by bfo Quote
From the comparison: ...."Ergonomics are essentially a draw and, as always, really boil down to the user's preference."....

How then do you get a Ergonomics score of 7 for the 7D vs. 9 for the K-5?
Obviously a flawed review. I sold a 7D after buying the K-5 and the K-5 ergos are a 10/10 for digital cameras. I'd rate the 7D a 5/10 which is the highest rating of any Canon I've owned. The Nikon D700 was an 8.5/10 and the 5DII I had was a 4.5/10.

Canon has great sensors, but their marketing department decides where and what buttons you get...
08-22-2011, 10:32 PM - 1 Like   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Are you advocating sending camera testers to the moon or the bottom of the Mariana Trench or else their tests aren't legitimate?


Nope, the K5 is a lot smaller, and it also has at least 2 stops more dynamic range, which for some is more important than a lot bigger with less dynamic range


This is why most people change systems at least once, and sometimes quite often during the course of their photographic journey.
When a person looks at a camera system, it only needs to do what they want it to do. It doesn't have to excel at every conceivable photographic endeavor, and if by chance, it did, there is no camera system made that is up to what you are asking.
It's all well and good to say the system must be up for anything, but is it really necessary, much less possible?
I moved from Olympus to Nikon to Pentax. By your reasoning, I should not have moved to Pentax, but I found things about the Pentax system that made it more desirable than what Nikon was offering, enough so that not having as complete a system just didn't enter into it.
Interesting.

People also define a "complete" system by number of super tele's, not by "who has the smallest system with the smallest HIGH QUALITY primes?"

If a photographer were looking for a small pro build camera with a collection of superlative APS primes, then neither Nikon or Canon would have anything near a "complete" system. Heck neither Nikon or Canon has full frame up to date prime offererings...

So complete is only reletive to what parameters your measuring for.
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