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07-07-2011, 02:02 AM   #136
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LOL.

You really don't get it - their 'problems' ARE your problems and the very reason you can afford to buy a K5 in the first place.... If you think the solution is you just do your shopping from Hong Kong and it wont effect you... good luck with that...

Everyone going to start chanting "Stop the Boats!" next too ? LMAO....

07-07-2011, 03:44 AM   #137
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It's not all about how the domestic retail marketplace is structured, local wage levels etc etc. That sounds like naive economist talk.

Adrian's arguments fall short of understanding the way the local market works for a lot of gear - eg Pentax stuff. You have one exclusive importer of Pentax/Sigma gear. They set the local prices and the RRP, then the local retailers have to try and work with that to make their margins.

The local price problems for most camera gear start from the top down, not the bottom up.

Same story with Sony gear - an on-camera mike for a NEX-5 bought direct from Sony AU: $199 (exclusive local distributor). Retail price anywhere in Oz, online or bricks and mortar: $199. Retail price from B&H in the US: USD$89. Etc
07-07-2011, 04:12 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by adr1an Quote

Now.. back to the facts I actually raised
Is that you Tony Abbott?

If you are going to quote "FACTS" at least quote them correctly.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics , the average retail sales person earnt $9.97 per hour in 2008, not $7.25. since then I would expect that has increased.
07-07-2011, 04:12 AM   #139
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Nicks: Funny that no ones comparing prices to Euro either though are they ? Seems to be entirely either HK/China based (Economy on the Up) or US based (Economy on the Down).. But heres where it gets hilarious for you I bet:

Checkout the "Premium" Pentax Dealer in Berlin, as suggested in this very forum eslewhere.
Willkommen bei Foto Meyer

They are having a catalogue sale right now... Guess whats on the front page.. K5 at a Special Price of $1199 Euro (or.. $1595 Aussie if you prefer) ! Marked down from, wait for it... $1549 (A mere $2120 Aussie...)...

Where are these cheaper stores in Europe ? Cause they aren't in Germany. Seems they pay exactly the same prices we do ??

Rawr: Refer above. Europe. Multiple distributors. Same Wages. Same Prices. CRKennedy isn't the issue entirely either. So not sure how just magically having competition fixes it - hasn't over there in the EU...

So... like I said... If you are all happy to earn $7.25 before tax... go for it. You'll get your cheaper prices.

Ivor; This I'm afraid has gone less than well for you... Because I did quote facts and the correct ones - without bad assumptions

Heres one source - The New York Department of Labor
http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/faq.shtm
Q: What is the minimum wage in New York
A: The minimum wage in New York State is $7.25 per hour. Everyone has a right to earn at least the minimum wage. In New York State, most workers should earn $7.25 an hour.

Heres another: http://www.minimum-wage.org/states.asp?state=New%20York
Heres another one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages

Shall I continue ? Minimum wage in 2011 in New York is $7.25. Do some people get paid more ? Possibly.. but the minimum is $7.25 versus NSW's Minimum -Casual Award Rate of $20 or the $16.50odd for full-time... sounds fair to me and a level playing field...


Last edited by adr1an; 07-07-2011 at 04:36 AM.
07-07-2011, 04:30 AM - 1 Like   #140
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Australia is a small market with a relatively high minimum wage, plenty of taxes and above average consumer laws (require more for the stores in terms of warranty and guarantee). This all adds up to higher prices.

Australia is also a globalised country, what this means is that the people in Australia can purchase stuff from overseas. Parallel importing is not illegal. So Australians have the right to choose to buy overseas. Obviously by doing this you lose the benefits of buying locally.

We have people complaining that Australian prices are high despite overseas prices. There is nothing stopping them from buying overseas... well, there is one, the benefits of buying locally. What does this mean? This means that buying locally provides better value (value in terms of benefits received rather than in terms of price). This increase in value in turn means that there should also be an increase in price (economically speaking).

So what can we do about it? We can choose to purchase overseas and force the retailers to sell at a lower price because they will see how much customers they are losing. This is ofcourse a double edged sword, there is a possibility that the retailers are already selling items for they best price they canand are forced to close shop, thus we as customers may lose the option to choose to purchase locally entirely. Or it could also go the otherway and the retailers lower the prices because they were just profiteering.

What can YOU do about it? Choose what is right, if you think they are profiteering purchase overseas, if you honestly believe that the price they set is the best they can set it to while still earning a profit (ie, while still having a reason to sell the items -- whats the point of selling things just to break even, you may as well not sell it at all if the result will be the same... 0 profit), then purchase locally.

Australia is a free market economy. Do what you think is right and the market as a whole will decide the outcome.
07-07-2011, 04:40 AM   #141
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Very few people work for the minimum wage.
I was quoting average wages in grocery stores in 2008 as stated by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
They also note that grocery stores usually pay less than other industry stores

Industry earnings. Average weekly earnings in grocery stores are considerably lower than the average for all industries, reflecting the large proportion of entry-level, part-time jobs. In 2008, nonsupervisory workers in grocery stores averaged $340 a week, compared with $608 a week for all workers in the private sector. Wages in selected occupations in grocery stores appear in table 3.

Table 3. Median hourly wages of the largest occupations in grocery stores, May 2008
Occupation
Grocery stores
All industries

First-line supervisors/managers of retail sales workers
$16.90
$16.97

Butchers and meat cutters
13.98
13.60

Bakers
11.39
11.20

Retail salespersons
9.97
9.86

Customer service representatives
9.45
14.36

Food preparation workers
9.41
8.96

Stock clerks and order fillers
9.38
10.00

Combined food preparation and serving workers, including fast food
9.23
7.90

Cashiers
8.59
8.49

Packers and packagers, hand
8.00
9.16
SOURCE: BLS Occupational Employment Statistics, May 2008.


If you owned a retail store and wanted me to come in for 1 hour casual work for just $7.25 I think you would now what my answer would be and probably everyone elses answer.
07-07-2011, 05:00 AM   #142
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Ok, given over 44% of workers earn LESS than $10/hr in New York *retail* as per the report here http://livingwagenyc.org/admin/tinymce/uploaded/file/9.%20FPI%20Report%20-%2...%20Bargain.pdf I'm happy to use $10 even - which is still higher than the list you posted. That $2.75 isn't going to change the competitive landscape or the basis of the facts . Since I was discussing Minimum's in both economies, Thats still a massive gap, per hour, to any comparable *minimum* wage in Australia and if we are to use the same arguments - then over HALF the employees are paid *MORE* than that minimum - $25/hr ?? .

I really thought people where going to offer some sort of solution amongst their opinions combined with having actually *examined* the situation... but we just seem to have a lot of rhetoric in this thread with very little otherwise and apparently zero attempt at understanding the situation... (comments about just off-shoring retail without heed to the impact to our economy is a classic example). What do you really think it'll be like if 90% of bricks and mortar disappeared over night ? I tell you what - I already miss Angus and Robertson....

Certainly no one has explained how 'moving online' magically solves the problems without trashing our economy/lifestyles

I dont want to get anyone on the wrong side here - I'm trying to offer some non emotive input here, I took the time to put forward statements and facts with supporting sources that goes a long way to explaining the situation, yet we just seem to have responses of "I want to spend my high salary on cheaper goods overseas"... seems rather self-centered really doesn't it ? No one is yet to explain how they intend for goods to be cheaper in this country, whilst retaining our high salaries and employee benefits and lifestyle... the very things that afford most of you the ability to complain about purchasing a luxury item like a Camera!!

Cheers Verglace for taking the time to elaborate on your comments and include mention of the basis of your reasoning...

(EDIT: A thought I just thought I'd share; I wonder what your average US reader would think, seeing all these complaints about high prices after reading about all our high salaries in comparison.... I reckon it'd be kinda embarrassing really don't you ?....)

Last edited by adr1an; 07-07-2011 at 05:11 AM.
07-07-2011, 05:35 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicks Quote
Adrian, 1199 Euro in Germany is equivalent to....exactly AUD 1199 in Australia not 1600 like you said...Doesn't make sense? It does because the average Australian wage is AUD55.000 while the average wage in Germany is, guess what...55.000 Euros.....Plus, i get the 18-55 WR lens in this price.

EDIT: that is actually a great price for a German citizen, this is exactly what I said...
Your average wages are off by a long shot... we must be using different sources. Because the average German Retail assistant isn't on $20 euros, or even $16... ... according to
Google Translate

The average wage for retail employees was $9.95 Euro, rising to $10.15 Euro from 2012. I'm not interested in what an officer worker earns - they don't aren't part of the cost of running a retail operation - which is the crux of the argument.

So Germans earn less in retail than Australians ... since we aren't converting Euro's to Aussies apparently - they are paying a lot more for their K5 than we are still! Even with their $200 'saving' in price over Australia - They have to work a lot more hours to earn it - in some cases Double the hours! Which to me, seems to mean that it would cost *more* than it does here in Australia. Gasp !

That aside - it simply reinforces what I said. Lower Minimum Retail Wage == Lower Costs of Goods. Because every 'example' of 'cheaper' cameras comes from countries with well below our average wages in retail - the bulk cost of doing retail business - and all seem to be at the $10 mark so far... Not $16, and definitely not $20....

Or is the above German Pay Rate Calculator wrong ?

Or we can convert Euro's to AUD since they aren't paid like for like at all (in fact its 1.5 to 2 times more here in Aust) - in which case - They pay exactly the same (In price) !
So which is it - They get the camera at the same price - Or - they are paying more because they have to work twice as long to buy it ?

Or do you just want to have it both ways and insist we pay more in this country for no good reason (whilst earning more min wage than those wiley Germans! )

Find me a country with our salaries and benefits and lower prices.. please !


Last edited by adr1an; 07-07-2011 at 09:01 AM.
07-07-2011, 02:07 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by adr1an Quote
I already miss Angus and Robertson
Gosh - I don't - poor service, few titles on the shelves, lengthy ordering/delivery process and little to no actual knowledge of the books they were selling. Yes they were keeping poorly educated juniors (mostly) in jobs but boy their model should not be held up as a poster child for the way retail should be run. They did not provide advice, expertise or really specialise - all that I expect of a retail store that could compete with overseas importing.
07-07-2011, 03:13 PM   #145
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Dixons UK...one of the biggest electrical retailers is selling the K5 for 969 pounds.. that's around $1500 AU.....I know for a fact that the poms dont earn as much as the average Aussie....and as you can probably buy the K5 in most Aussie retailers for around $1550 au....I cant see how anyone in AU is getting ripped....its not until you venture into the Asian online retailers that the price is extremely low.

as far as prices at B&H go....yes at the mo they are cheap for us..but if the exchange rate went back down to $0,66 au for a US dollar..those prices would be high.....people seem to forget that the current exchange rate is a phenomenon rather than the Norm..!
07-07-2011, 05:13 PM   #146
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Pixley: I noticed you didn't answer the actual question and just wanted to have a complain about the 'quality' of Angus and Robertson... Complaining is indeed a common theme in this thread.... Myself ? I just miss being able to walk into a store and pickup some books and buy some every now and then - whenever I damn well pleased and was down the shops instead of waiting 3-5 days and deciding I didn't like it in hardback after all.

Never said they where the best book store company in the world... But buying books in person sorta suck right now doesn't it ??? I don't want to browse "Overseas" - I find it far more convenient to do that at my local shopping centre than trying to catch a Plane to the US when I want to physically browse ...

So - Back to the simple question people need to answer before they complain about Australian Prices:

Where are these countries with our same high salaries for retail staff and the cheaper K5's ?
Every example rattled off so far has LESS than $10 Minimums, and half the retail workforce on $10 or less. Far cry from our $16-$20...

So no more mouthing off or talking waffle - Prove it with hard numbers. Its pretty straight forward task if we are being so blindly ripped off ?
It also is not our exclusive distributor - as shown - EU is no different price wise, and they have Multiple Distribution chains. So don't just blame CRK either...

Find a country with Equal Min Wage for Retail Employees and lower Prices on the K5... Until we can do that - then perhaps we should stop running around making out we are getting screwed when we quite clearly - Are Not... Unless its now our job to make Australians appear like the biggest pack of ungratefuls that complain till the cows come home for no apparent reason...

"We earn double your minimum wage and yet pay $100 more for a Camera sent 10,000 miles away handled all the way by 3 people that each earn twice what you do as well... Aren't we hard done by!! "


Don't just call me names or make snide comments - Show me where what I have said is wrong - With Evidence, not just because you think it should be otherwise... or you 'think' you are being screwed... Demonstrate it. With numbers and sources to back them.

Last edited by adr1an; 07-07-2011 at 05:22 PM.
07-07-2011, 05:23 PM   #147
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Sorry Adrian - I have small children - buying anything in person for the last 5 years + sucks really - getting babies/children in the car - out of the car, in the pram, out of the pram, in the store out of the store - only to have the retailer say to me that "they can order it in but it will take up to 8 weeks". I much prefer to buy over the internet in these circumstances than have the hassle of this scenario. I am not much of a shopper or browser anyway. I generallly know what I want before I buy - I don't really "do" impulse. I even buy groceries over the internet.

Just out of interest I went back to my local retailer in Melbourne this morning - price quoted was $1700 - even with my best haggling face on. I would actually prefer to buy local but not at this price - sorry.
07-07-2011, 05:33 PM   #148
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Firstly.,. Wow. So because you don't like going to the shops I don't deserve nor need any either ? Ok... Sounds fair and Altruist to me! Explains a lot I guess...

Regarding your Camera: Well; Wasn't this the same store that overquoted you last time as well? I think twitch suggeted some alternatives where he has also gotten much lower prices than yourself quoted - there in Melbourne. Maybe the issue is more your particular store, and not symbolic of all Australian Retail at all ? No one said that every store you walk into is going to give you the best deal they can - In *any* Country!!

Anyways, Heres twitches suggestion to you, and confirming his quote of $1590... in Melbourne.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/1569852-post130.html

And heres Robert Kennedy, from CRK, stating he will match an internet price of $1100... in Melbourne.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/1536360-post33.html

Two references, in this very thread, to people that are prepared to do a better deal - Here in Australia - right in your home town. That doesn't sound like a 'rip-off' country does it ? It sure sounds like one though with Choice!
07-07-2011, 05:34 PM   #149
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Actually Adrian the "quality" of the experience may go to the heart of how retailers will need to adapt to the growing internet phenomena. Retailers will need to do something different or extra or specialise. If you just want to view my experience as "complaining" that is fine - but the world will not stop spinning and people will not stop adapting to a global market just because you would like to shop "in person" and don't want things to change. They already have........
07-07-2011, 05:37 PM   #150
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Adrian - I also contacted CR Kennedy - they said they don't price match - it seems very hit and miss as to who contacts them and as to what response you get. They suggested I go to DCW.

Cheers
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