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09-21-2011, 02:22 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by sasg Quote
I bought K-5 three months ago and the lens release button was lost about 5 weeks ago. The camera is "In Repair" since 09/07 with estimated repair time 4-6 weeks according to the C.R.I.S. That's a long wait and I'm not happy with Pentax/Hoya K-5 design/quality control. I have K10D for 5 years, it is much more solid camera, K-5 is not in the same category as K10D qualitywise (compare for example SD door design). The lens release button is rock-solid on K10D. The cute (but tiring) squirrels that are posted in every thread about K-5 issues are not going to help in getting back my camera...
Maybe going out with your K10D and shooting some ISO 6400 will ease your pain? How come going above ISO 800 was not considered a "defect" on the K10D? I loved my K10D, but it is not in the same game as the K5, not even close for what I do....shoot those pesky Squirrels.
Your problem is regrettable, and if it was me, I would be hopping mad, so I am not knocking you, as you did my Squirrels, but I will knock the poor service I am seeing. Replacing a button should be a one day turnaround, maybe two. Ricoh will have to do much better at both QC and service if they want to make Pentax a real player in the DSLR market. Which, by the way is still an unknown at this time......we may not even have a product to complain about...ever thought of that?
Regards!

09-21-2011, 06:38 PM - 2 Likes   #77
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For the love of god, can we have a thread on this forum without a squirrel image posted to it?
09-21-2011, 07:24 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
For the love of god, can we have a thread on this forum without a squirrel image posted to it?
I suppose you could request a vote .....you leave or Otis...Wheatfield declined that offer if I recall...maybe you feel lucky? Well, do you....

Otis watches these old movies all night sometimes.......helps build character...he says. I never argue.

Regards!

Last edited by Rupert; 09-21-2011 at 07:41 PM.
09-21-2011, 08:51 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Maybe going out with your K10D and shooting some ISO 6400 will ease your pain? How come going above ISO 800 was not considered a "defect" on the K10D?
In one case, you are talking about a technical limitation of the day, in the other, you are talking about parts falling off, rendering the camera operationally challenged.


QuoteQuote:
Your problem is regrettable, and if it was me, I would be hopping mad, so I am not knocking you, as you did my Squirrels, but I will knock the poor service I am seeing. Replacing a button should be a one day turnaround, maybe two. Ricoh will have to do much better at both QC and service if they want to make Pentax a real player in the DSLR market. Which, by the way is still an unknown at this time......we may not even have a product to complain about...ever thought of that?
Regards!
The point is, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. It's the lens release button that is falling off. This isn't the rocket science part of the camera, this is a brute force mechanism that has been around for many decades.
It shouldn't be one of the components that breaks.

I find it amazing that things which are little more than an inconvenience from a useability POV are unforgivable, but something that can effectively brick the camera is shrugged off as "just a repair, no biggie, too bad Pentax isn't faster at fixing them".

09-22-2011, 06:34 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
In one case, you are talking about a technical limitation of the day, in the other, you are talking about parts falling off, rendering the camera operationally challenged.




The point is, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. It's the lens release button that is falling off. This isn't the rocket science part of the camera, this is a brute force mechanism that has been around for many decades.
It shouldn't be one of the components that breaks.

I find it amazing that things which are little more than an inconvenience from a useability POV are unforgivable, but something that can effectively brick the camera is shrugged off as "just a repair, no biggie, too bad Pentax isn't faster at fixing them".

I can agree with most of that Wheatfield.....it is a far cry from "killing off little Squirrels" here on PF. Because we might not agree on things, I have not advocated ridding the presence of wheat, or even the chaff I find objectionable. I trust you and your sidekick will leave my Squirrels out of your dialogue and stick to your message?

I read a post in a thread somewhere here by Smeggy that reminded me of something seldom mentioned.....most of the problems reported were in early model K5s, and there were a lot of them purchased.......most owners of later models are reporting very few, if any , of the major defects from the entry models. So, by deduction, if we are knocking the K5 as a model, we are perhaps discouraging current prospective buyers from the purchase of one of the finest cameras they could own. Something just doesn't seem right about that, does it?

Not to poke at you or your sidekick, seriously, but I can't help but love my K5 when I can shoot for some speed and get this kind of result with my K5...my problem free K5.....what a joy and pleasure to use!

1/160 f10 @ 310mm ISO 6400
[IMG] [/IMG]

Regards!
09-22-2011, 07:21 AM   #81
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The sadistic side of me would love to see a Photoshop of the squirrel above chewing on a lens release button that fell off, hehehehehehe.
09-22-2011, 07:26 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trig Quote
The sadistic side of me would love to see a Photoshop of the squirrel above chewing on a lens release button that fell off, hehehehehehe.
well, I doubt Otis would allow that, he is not a Pentax basher, in case you haven't noticed! But like you, I can get a visual of it.......hilarious, but not funny.......like sweet and sour sauce, if you know what I mean!

Regards!
09-22-2011, 08:25 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I read a post in a thread somewhere here by Smeggy that reminded me of something seldom mentioned.....most of the problems reported were in early model K5s, and there were a lot of them purchased.......most owners of later models are reporting very few, if any , of the major defects from the entry models. So, by deduction, if we are knocking the K5 as a model, we are perhaps discouraging current prospective buyers from the purchase of one of the finest cameras they could own. Something just doesn't seem right about that, does it?
The K5's initial problems were stains/FF/Flash. Those were the early ones and Pentax cleared them up fairly quickly and fairly well - all is forgiven. The "mirror over-run" problem seem to be afflicting owners who bought early 2011 and the problem doesn't show up right away - it takes either time and/or shutter clicks to appear. This truly silly LRBFO (lens release button falls off) has shown up sporadically since the beginning but seems to happening a bit more often. If Ricoh wanted to assure Pentax owners of their commitment they should announce support for anyone who buys the extended warranty within the original warranty period (ie one year)

As I said before, the fact that the other brands have their own problems is no consolation. As a much smaller player with fewer resources, Pentax can not afford to be me-too when it comes to quality. especially in a class leading design like the K5.

RE: Squirrels - I still find them cute despite having torn up the wiring of my car. Yes they can be very wise and entertaining. However even squirrels take a rest once in a while.

09-22-2011, 09:14 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by geezer52 Quote
RE: Squirrels - I still find them cute despite having torn up the wiring of my car. Yes they can be very wise and entertaining. However even squirrels take a rest once in a while.
Yes, it cost me over $700 for the wiring harness in my Jeep Wrangler a few years ago......how bad was yours? Since I stared feeding them ...plenty...they no longer try to hot-wire my vehicles and go joy riding....

Otis agrees totally about taking a rest, and thanks you for your understanding.....

Sometimes you just have to crash.....
[IMG] [/IMG]

Best Regards!
09-22-2011, 09:34 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Squirrels are very real....I have thousands of photos to prove it! No one I know of here has "tried to deny" the problems reported that I know of......but having a perfectly functioning K5 with all its buttons and dials is by no means "blind faith". it is a reality experienced by the majority of owners. Painting a picture that all K5s are defective is as unfair and dishonest as denying that any problems exist. Some acorns falling is not the sky falling...even a smart Squirrel knows that and continues on about his business of "getting healthy".
No one doubts that you personally seem to have, an as of yet, problem free camera. (and hopefully it will remain that way, too! )
Discussion around real problems being reported, and discussions based on information that is known, is far from painting a picture that all K5s are defective. Discussing standard design and manufacturing knowledge, or typical product practices, as well as the relative improbability of a failure of a long standing, decades old very simple 'feature' (lens release) being down to a design (vs material or assembly/QC issues) is also not saying every K5 is defective. It is, however, discussion of a factual nature, at least with those that are known, and trying to gather more information, instead of being a fanboy thread with squirrel pictures detracting from actual conversation. I like your pics, personally, but don't believe they belong in every thread, nor as a derailment of threads with more serious tones to them.

I'm much more interested in a parts diagram and part numbers between the K7 and K5 lens release assemblies, in this thread, than in pictures of squirrels and seeing re-statements of the obvious, or defensive in nature. What about those users who had a K10 or K20, or have both an older model and the K5? Is the K7 release pin metal, and the K5s plastic? Do they both have an identical feel? Has anyone had both an older model and the K5 apart enough to confirm if any difference exists? Can anyone confirm if a part number for the retaining pin has been changed, meaning the old PN was obsoleted by an 'improved' one? I would think that for many, those answers would be more useful than another Otis pic, no?

QuoteQuote:
BTW- Maybe you need to scout around on the Forums of other brands......it is not as rosy as you might believe. All Mfgs. are using a variety of suppliers, and low bid contracts......cameras or cars, this can and does result in problems for select batches of the product. It in no way relinquishes responsibility from Hoya for their poor QC, but it is also not limited to Pentax by a long shot. We often see millions of cars/trucks recalled, and you can bet they have a better feel for QC than any of the camera makers, more is at risk, and more money is involved, as well as public safety. A button falling off is inconvenient, a wheel falling off can mean death or serious injury and property damage....yet, it does happen.
This is just a deflection from the real discussion, IMO. Problems in other brands don't impact K5 owners, each product stands or falls on it's own. Indeed, never ending increases in 'planned obsolescence' designs, and seeking lower and lower quality levels as 'acceptable' to save some mfgr costs, is a problem in many products

Trying to change the 'severity' doesn't do wonders here, either.
If a product purchased for a given advertised purpose puts itself into a condition where it is unsuitable or unusable for that advertised purpose - the product itself is simply unusable. Lemon laws for vehicles generally say something similar to: "If a new car still under warranty is not operating for 30 days in the first one to two years or 12,000 to 18,000 miles, it can also qualify as a lemon"

Allowing for differences in warrantee time, I would say any item that is effectively out of service and unable to be used for it's intended purpose for one or more months in a 12 month period - it would not be unfair to classify such an item as a lemon.

I am not saying a recall needs to be made nor that all K5s are defective - we simply don't have enough facts, facts which Otis can't provide, unless you'll have him take apart your K5 and prior Pentax camera to compare for us?

I am saying that if someone were to have more than a single failure, and Pentax were keeping the camera for more than a month each time, that I wouldn't consider them off base in letting Pentax know it's time for a brand new camera, or a letter from their lawyer, and doing further investigation on lemon laws and consumer protection. A manufacturer could of course, choose to improve their turnaround time - if 2 repairs were needed in a year, and each took only 10 days end to end, it's not nice, but is pretty decent service. I would worry about reliability in [b]nearly any[/b[ device that had to go back for major repairs more than once in a 12 month period, myself.

QuoteQuote:
Will Ricoh be better? I think so, I hope so, but they will not be perfect, you see, that is just not "real world" possible.
Regards!
Not terribly relevant - getting all hopey changey on Ricoh doesn't really impact things much IF there are design flaws, unless they plan on doing a recall, or making a statement to clarify if any know/accepted issues exist due to design or material issues. It's more likely Ricoh will have zero impact until the next models, or even later, IMO. None of that matters much to people today if anyone is experiencing multiple failures in a 12 month period, each taking 4+ weeks for turnarounds.

So maybe someone can provide actual real world diagrams or pictures comparing the parts, to make sure we keep the discussion "real world" enough, and anything deemed not "real world enough" should be deleted from the thread, then?
09-22-2011, 10:36 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by rtpguy Quote
No one doubts that you personally seem to have, an as of yet, problem free camera. (and hopefully it will remain that way, too! )
Discussion around real problems being reported, and discussions based on information that is known, is far from painting a picture that all K5s are defective. Discussing standard design and manufacturing knowledge, or typical product practices, as well as the relative improbability of a failure of a long standing, decades old very simple 'feature' (lens release) being down to a design (vs material or assembly/QC issues) is also not saying every K5 is defective. It is, however, discussion of a factual nature, at least with those that are known, and trying to gather more information, instead of being a fanboy thread with squirrel pictures detracting from actual conversation. I like your pics, personally, but don't believe they belong in every thread, nor as a derailment of threads with more serious tones to them.

I'm much more interested in a parts diagram and part numbers between the K7 and K5 lens release assemblies, in this thread, than in pictures of squirrels and seeing re-statements of the obvious, or defensive in nature. What about those users who had a K10 or K20, or have both an older model and the K5? Is the K7 release pin metal, and the K5s plastic? Do they both have an identical feel? Has anyone had both an older model and the K5 apart enough to confirm if any difference exists? Can anyone confirm if a part number for the retaining pin has been changed, meaning the old PN was obsoleted by an 'improved' one? I would think that for many, those answers would be more useful than another Otis pic, no?


This is just a deflection from the real discussion, IMO. Problems in other brands don't impact K5 owners, each product stands or falls on it's own. Indeed, never ending increases in 'planned obsolescence' designs, and seeking lower and lower quality levels as 'acceptable' to save some mfgr costs, is a problem in many products

Trying to change the 'severity' doesn't do wonders here, either.
If a product purchased for a given advertised purpose puts itself into a condition where it is unsuitable or unusable for that advertised purpose - the product itself is simply unusable. Lemon laws for vehicles generally say something similar to: "If a new car still under warranty is not operating for 30 days in the first one to two years or 12,000 to 18,000 miles, it can also qualify as a lemon"

Allowing for differences in warrantee time, I would say any item that is effectively out of service and unable to be used for it's intended purpose for one or more months in a 12 month period - it would not be unfair to classify such an item as a lemon.

I am not saying a recall needs to be made nor that all K5s are defective - we simply don't have enough facts, facts which Otis can't provide, unless you'll have him take apart your K5 and prior Pentax camera to compare for us?

I am saying that if someone were to have more than a single failure, and Pentax were keeping the camera for more than a month each time, that I wouldn't consider them off base in letting Pentax know it's time for a brand new camera, or a letter from their lawyer, and doing further investigation on lemon laws and consumer protection. A manufacturer could of course, choose to improve their turnaround time - if 2 repairs were needed in a year, and each took only 10 days end to end, it's not nice, but is pretty decent service. I would worry about reliability in [b]nearly any[/b[ device that had to go back for major repairs more than once in a 12 month period, myself.



Not terribly relevant - getting all hopey changey on Ricoh doesn't really impact things much IF there are design flaws, unless they plan on doing a recall, or making a statement to clarify if any know/accepted issues exist due to design or material issues. It's more likely Ricoh will have zero impact until the next models, or even later, IMO. None of that matters much to people today if anyone is experiencing multiple failures in a 12 month period, each taking 4+ weeks for turnarounds.

So maybe someone can provide actual real world diagrams or pictures comparing the parts, to make sure we keep the discussion "real world" enough, and anything deemed not "real world enough" should be deleted from the thread, then?
Otis is all for it....he always wanted to look inside and see where all those tiny Squirrels on the LCD live......

I can't disagree with much of what you posted, but still don't see your recognition that despite the problems, (which you will have a difficult time finding where I have ever denied them...no, impossible time finding), most K5s appear to be problem free. Just recognize that the sky is, in fact, not falling. Can you do that are are you just flat out convinced that it is? We have a lot of "sunshine" K5 shooters here for a world where the sky has caved in on everyone....how is that possible?

Hopey changey? Yes, I have it......and you don't? I think it relates to any thread concerning the current problems and the future we expect from Ricoh......and when did you see any thread that stuck 100% to the subject......I can't recall even one...can you?

Otis keeps saying..."be nice, I live here" , so back to my opening, I do generally agree, and think a camera should be replaced or repaired and back in the hands of the owner within two weeks maximum. Lemon laws....familiar with them and yes they do apply to cameras where I live, and I would use them if necessary. If there are not enough technicians, then hire more, that is not our problem and I hear people need jobs anyhow....

I also agree that the reports here are very casual and lacking in any pertinent information......very little to determine what happened to what production model etc etc.......nothing more than "I got problems" in most instances. Lacking that detailed information, it makes the situation look either better or worse than it may actually be. Threads bounce around and re-surface, and it appears that the same problem is happening over and over...when in some cases it is just the thread recurring over and over.

I believe your basic displeasure is with me, not Otis, I certainly hope so.....unless you are one that communicates with Squirrels, as I do...you don't want to admit to that, do you?
The situation is that I have a perfectly functioning K5, which is most certainly relevant, and it is near impossible for me to be unhappy with it or to deny it. Do I proclaim it too much? Maybe, but if I was a dissatisfied owner, you would hear just as much from coming from the other direction.....seems fair enough to me? If we can complain, and I am all for that, then we can praise.....can't we?

Again, I don't think we are that far apart on our thinking......just a little trimming around the edges and we could be on the same page.
Best Regards!
Rupert
09-22-2011, 11:36 AM - 1 Like   #87
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This is how release button/retainer ring looks like (thanks to the other forum's members)... I don't know if the C.R.I.S. is replacing these rings with the same part or improved one. Local authorized Pentax shop quoted me $62.00 and 1 hour to do the job but I decided to try it out with the C.R.I.S. based on the positive reviews here. Still waiting...


09-22-2011, 12:59 PM   #88
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@sasg - I saw the same photos on a dp review thread, wasn't sure of the policy here about links elsewhere...but hey, now they're posted.

Let's take some guesses, and maybe someone has some other pics or diagrams, P/Ns (or mech engineering/design experience? ) to add..

The bottom pic is kinda strange - it looks like the retaining ring is sitting down in the camera body, can't quite tell if that's it or not, which is where a parts diagram would help, or a pic of the same from the K7, K10/20, etc.
it's kind of obvious now why it's somewhat 'floppy' - the button and shaft are plastic, standard circlip type groove, and on the inside the shaft doesn't 'engage' into anything, is just a simple retaining ring on the other side, and the rubber seal under the button helps to provide both sealing and enough tension so it doesn't rattle around (which I bet it would without the rubber/poly cone around the shaft), unless there used to also be a spring around the shaft.. ?

From where i think the original post of those pics is from, can't quite tell if the retaining clip itself is plastic or metal - the 'flakes' on the top pic inside the cone look like they're metal. The camera body 'bushing' looks like it's deformed slightly, so can't really guess if those flakes are from the camera body or the ring, if they're in fact metal. The button assembly seems to have a wire loop around it (look at bottom/below the seal, 3-6 o'clock range), which is a little strange - something that has tension (from the seal) along with a retaining ring shouldn't really need something to hold the seal onto the button shaft besides friction and tension, but maybe that's what it's for, and it's probably the reason for the deformation of the camera body bushing, from the wire loop repeatedly contacting it on lens changes..if so, the retaining clip itself could still be metal or plastic, worn or not.

The clip groove on the shaft isn't quite high enough detail to see if it was really worn or not, but as there's no plastic shavings inside, I'm guessing the shavings are from the camera body bushing, minor wearing due to the wire loop, but the failure wasn't from wearing over time, but probably from simple 'impact' - pushing in to release the lens, it's under tension, and releasing it, especially when locking in a lens, allowing the AF screw drive and other pin to 'pop' back into place, pushes the shaft away from the body with force, until the retaining ring/circlip contacts the inside of the body, shocking the circlip and the 'connection' between the shaft groove and the clip. Maybe it's a 1 in 1000 occurrence, maybe a stronger clip (or a deeper groove in the shaft and different ID circlip) is needed. It would seem somewhat possible, but unlikely IMO that it would be an assembly problem, but it depends on the type of clip used, and just seems unlikely unless it's not a normal circlip, but a full circle 'locking' style instead, which I suppose *might* be able to be put on with tension around the shaft (so the lens release button/shaft doesn't immediately pop out after assembly/out of box), but not fully engaged into the groove on the shaft.. I couldn't imagine changing 'design' from the K7 on this though - it just doesn't make sense to spend $ (time | employees time == $) to make changes going from k7->K5 with the same body, so either there were a lot of buttons popping out on K7s that were never complained about, the K5 amazingly outsold the K7 and has the same percentage of issues vs qty sold, but more users so therefore more occurrences of 'complaining,' or, well, a bad batch (or 'cheaper') set of retaining rings, or something else of of spec causing higher tension leading to a seemingly higher rate of failure.. ?

Were it a simple affair to pop off the front face of the camera with the mount area, making this 'easily' accessible, from the pics shown, it would be really simple, and highly likely a properly sized circlip could easily be sourced.
Any disassembly pics? Popping the lens off the front of the cam doesn't give any path i can see to the backside of the release pin, and it's not somewhere to be poking fingers in awkwardly, but if this were easily accessed (and without disturbing weather sealing in disassembly), this would be a really easy thing to fix.

Guessing/speculation mode off. Anyone have a parts diagram, repair manual on the K5s (or K7s)?
Look forward to seeing if anyone has pics, or can compare to their K7/K20. I may find some black duct tape or just ignore it entirely and keep my finger on the button to reduce the tension when the button pops out, and just not worry about this one much. I'd not worry about it at *all* if the parts could be bought or sent by Pentax and they'd allow a normal camera repair shop to do the fix, but this would be a lousy thing to potentially take a month turnaround on for those of us in the US..
09-22-2011, 03:24 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by rtpguy Quote
this would be a lousy thing to potentially take a month turnaround on for those of us in the US..
Bingo!
09-22-2011, 04:41 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by dadipentak Quote
Bingo!
Well, I don't find it acceptable either. Who would...anyone? Does anyone know for sure if the camera has to be fully opened to make this repair? I could see that taking more time than a day, but a month is just not acceptable either way. Hire more people, find alternative repair sites....do something!

Another question...has anyone with this problem found any broken pieces? If not, maybe it is an assembly problem where this originates? Clip not fully installed?
Regards!
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