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06-22-2011, 08:07 AM   #31
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+1 for the new Metz servo mode. It works terrific with the on-board flash.

QuoteOriginally posted by mtansley Quote
The Metz 58 with the latest firmware does have a 'servo' mode which will fire the flash wirelessly using the built in flash as the trigger. The servo mode ignores the preflash. I believe this firmware is also available for the 48.

By mount I presume you mean different camera systems? The Nikon Creative Lighting system will allow you to control multiple remote flashes using the built-in flash as a controller. You can select up to 3 different groups of flash units remotely and they can be set using TTL or Manual control from the camera. You can adjust the power of the remote flash from the camera as well.


06-22-2011, 10:30 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtansley Quote
The Metz 58 with the latest firmware does have a 'servo' mode which will fire the flash wirelessly using the built in flash as the trigger. The servo mode ignores the preflash. I believe this firmware is also available for the 48.
QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
Um I do it all of the time with both my Pentax AF 360 and my metz 48....
Does it just ignore the preflash and fire in manual power mode with the next flash (like the YN flashes, not what I'm talking about), or will it read the timing delay of the pre-flash and fire without contribution of the controller flash?

I could not get it working with my Metz 48, which is why I moved to wireless triggers.
QuoteQuote:

By mount I presume you mean different camera systems? The Nikon Creative Lighting system will allow you to control multiple remote flashes using the built-in flash as a controller. You can select up to 3 different groups of flash units remotely and they can be set using TTL or Manual control from the camera. You can adjust the power of the remote flash from the camera as well.
Cool, I didn't know you could use CLS to do remote manual flash.
06-22-2011, 10:45 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
Does it just ignore the preflash and fire in manual power mode with the next flash (like the YN flashes, not what I'm talking about), or will it read the timing delay of the pre-flash and fire without contribution of the controller flash?

I could not get it working with my Metz 48, which is why I moved to wireless triggers.


Cool, I didn't know you could use CLS to do remote manual flash.
I'm not sure to be honest, I tried it out once or twice for the fun of it but for reliable remote triggering of the Metz 58 & my Pentax K20 I use a pair of PocketWizards, that way you KNOW FOR SURE when it's going to fire. They always say that the built in flash doesn't contribute to the overall photo but it's still flashing and therefore it must contribute something to the exposure. I like radio for that reason.

The Nikon CLS is quite a neat system, Pocket Wizard also sells a set of wireless TTL radio triggers for Nikon & Canon (not cheap) so it would work quite well outside. I think that Pentax is a bit behind regarding remote wireless flash systems since the built in flash on my Nikon D80 allows you to set the power manually and do some simple strobing as well as the normal TTL mode. (flames start after here probably!!)
06-22-2011, 10:45 AM   #34
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Can someone explain this to me please....

1) The K-5 is with the Metz flash mounted ON it. PTTL mode.

2) White Balance of the camera is on FLASH!

Under some circumstances (not exactly clear when) it happens that I get varianble WB -- a bleu-ish (cold color WB) to the JPG which the camera produces.

I mean literally let's say one shot is "warm" and two or three are "cold" and this is pretty much on the same scene. How could that happen? Talking about Metx in PTTL. What is the problem here?

Yongnuo YN560 manual flash is 100% OK all of the time, never got it wrong on AWB either.


Also... when I push the WB button it fetches the last image and ... there looking at it thru FLASH balance it looks different from the JPG produced before USING FLASH white balance. And there it looks as I would expect it to be and as the rest of the images are.

Mein Herr those METZ )

06-22-2011, 11:04 AM   #35
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Mtansley, nice info, thanks for sharing! PocketWizards seems to be good, I used Phottix and they are nice too, but it happened few times the flashes didn't fire. I suspect batteries, but never know.. but I have thousands of images with Phottix - good triggers too.


QuoteQuote:
They always say that the built in flash doesn't contribute to the overall photo
Yes, but I tested the following - I have put one black stick in flont of a white wall and the wireless Metz servo mode 45 degrees on the left. Guess what I have TWO shadows there... one which is string and well defined (the remote Metz) and another one from the oncamera flash. Same thing is visible in objects which have reflective surfaces - TWO flashes there... And I get the same in PTTL, basically I don't know how am I going to be making portraits with PTTL in case if two flashes are reflected in the eyes of the subject.
06-22-2011, 06:17 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by dreamfoto Quote
Yes, but I tested the following - I have put one black stick in flont of a white wall and the wireless Metz servo mode 45 degrees on the left. Guess what I have TWO shadows there... one which is string and well defined (the remote Metz) and another one from the oncamera flash. Same thing is visible in objects which have reflective surfaces - TWO flashes there... And I get the same in PTTL, basically I don't know how am I going to be making portraits with PTTL in case if two flashes are reflected in the eyes of the subject.
I know, I found the same thing as well. However, generally in portrait shooting you always use a radio trigger or wired rather than optical. The studio monolights that are used professionally don't even have any automatic settings, you set the power manually on those although you trigger one of them and the others can be triggered by that first flash. No P-TTL is used though. You set everything manually. Automation can't be trusted for portrait work, you create the effect yourself by setting the camera to manual and deciding everything for yourself.
06-29-2011, 10:05 AM   #37
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Hi,

I have to disagree with you. I find the Metz 58 AF-1 a really excellent flash. I use it both on a K-x and a K-5 body and it never failed a single shot.
I suggest you check the condition of your copy of the flash and perhaps update the firmware - easily available at Metz site, which features excellent support.

I hope you fix your problems and have fun shooting.

Have a great day/evening!
Yanko
06-29-2011, 12:12 PM   #38
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Hi Yanko, nice to hear your Metz is serrving you well and you re happy using it. It is entitrly possible that the combination MY K5 and THIS Metx was just not working together. I upgraded the firmware - did not help any!

Let me summarize the issues I had with the flash -

1) PTTL. Overexposure or underexposure using different modes (direct on-camera/on camera bounced/remote direct/remote bounced) exposures can be compensated since they under/over-expose consistently within one mode, but inconsistently among all the modes. Sometimes however I get inconsistent exposures even within one mode of usage as well. (which when happens I would characterize as the final cut to my soul)

2) Manual remote mode (called servo in Metz) does not work as expected and leves some exposure of the controller flash. Which should NOT happen

3) WB. Weird material probably the most puzzling of all, but not the most serious. Never occured to me with another flash - I have an older Pentax TTL flash which I use with my film SF7 and which is very good, on-camera flash and YN56 - great flash. I could NEVER figure out how the WB of the camera works with the Metz. Simply selecting Flash-WB and checking the picture later reveals the JPG image in the camera has different balance compared to the WB preview.

4) Using the menus is very very tedious. I did not enjoy too much the flash it was a torture to scroll all those menus all the time. This is subjective - everyone else is happy with the menus.

So here's a recap of my misery with the Metz. I suppose I am stupid/wrong or my K-5 didn't like this Metz or it was broken cokmpletely. But in all cases I have to put up to the circumstances

06-29-2011, 12:23 PM   #39
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I witness this "quirk" as well. Having said that, the amount of residual light from the on-board flash is extremely minimal.

QuoteOriginally posted by dreamfoto Quote
...
2) Manual remote mode (called servo in Metz) does not work as expected and leves some exposure of the controller flash. Which should NOT happen...
06-29-2011, 01:45 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by dreamfoto Quote
2) Manual remote mode (called servo in Metz) does not work as expected and leves some exposure of the controller flash. Which should NOT happen
I believe I noticed this behaviour even with my Pentax AF540 flash. It even happened when the flash & camera were using remote P-TTL mode.

I think that the remote flash flashes when it sees the on-board flash, there is no timer to tell it to flash when the on-board one turns off.

I presume that the designers just assume that the on-board flash will be at a low power.
06-29-2011, 02:13 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtansley Quote
I believe I noticed this behaviour even with my Pentax AF540 flash.
Necessarily, residual controller flash illumination will have to be observed with every external flash since it is the camera that synchronises the on-board flash with the exposure. There is nothing an external flash -- Metz or not -- can do about this.

Other problems, e.g., inconsistent exposure, are the problem of the camera as well. The K-5 is known to have this bug.

Regarding the inconsistent white balance, I can only speculate that the flash sometimes doesn't fire because the camera stops triggering it when the shutter speed goes beyond 1/180. How on earth should a flash be able to change its colour temperature? If this were possible, it would be sold as a feature.

Summarizing, the problems described here seem to be a combination of normal camera behaviour, K-5 flash exposure issues, and user error. I'm a 100% unconvinced that the flash copy is at fault, let alone the flash model.
06-29-2011, 02:32 PM   #42
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Which is why when recently I visited a pioneer village on a bright sunny day and needed fill flash or inside illumination flash, I didn't bother with the P-TTL mode, I just used the old-fashioned Automatic mode on my Metz 58 AF-2 and virtually every photo turned out as I wanted it.

I also prefer to remotely trigger flashes using radio rather than optical whenever possible.
06-29-2011, 03:36 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Necessarily, residual controller flash illumination will have to be observed with every external flash since it is the camera that synchronises the on-board flash with the exposure. There is nothing an external flash -- Metz or not -- can do about this.
I guess you are correct, but then they should fix the manual -

QuoteOriginally posted by Metz Manual:
When the controller function is activated, the built-in camera flash only controls
the Slave unit(s) with its light. The light of the Controller does not contribute to
the exposure of the shot
.
http://www.metz.de/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&file=fileadmin%2Ffm-dam%...d0b5de0d4b896f


Next, my flash was doing the exact oposite of that is described here -
QuoteOriginally posted by Metz Manual:
The correct exposure indication „OK“ only lights up
if the shot was correctly exposed in TTL
flash mode or
automatic flash mode.
Whenever I hear the beeping sound and whenever this RED! button light up I knew it was going to be screwed (badly overexposed). How does it make sense for it to be the oposite... Plus, no "OK" is written on any of the buttons....

And on remote manual mode the Metz manual says
QuoteOriginally posted by Metz Manual:
nichts!
yep, nothing.

mtansley, I have the same experience - tried to use the Metz in PTTL for fill flash in an outdoor event (remote slave, but I would suspect on camera would be the same) and found it ... COMPLETELY useless.

The positive side of it is that I learned to expose manual better then PTTL and faster, I actually can make very good guess even for bounced flash. Using two flashes - one on camera and one for fill is a bit slower, but I get it usualy the first time, maximum the second guess.
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