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08-06-2011, 11:01 PM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamesm007 Quote
Hoya may have pushed the FPS pass the design spec of those parts and did not do enough QC. Whats the difference between the K-7 and K-5: The K-5 is faster.

EDIT: to the above post I made some pages ago. New info is on the other Pentax Forum of the repair done by CRIS Cameras to solve one persons mirror flop issue..

Some, no "one" of the K5s coming back from repair say this on C.R.I.S Cameras repair receipt (posted at the other Pentax SLR forum ( For Jim Radcliffe - re mirror flop issue).

"sofladave,
Thanks for the update.
When I get mine back from C.R.I.S. I'll also report back. My guess is that I'll hear the same thing.
Time will tell.
Pete
sofladave wrote:
SanMat
I was told the same thing when I sent my K5 back. On the paperwork that came back with my camera the Repair Description said:
Replaced Aperture Control Unit
Replaced Aperture Control Contact Pad and Brushes
It will be interesting to see if your paperwork says the same
SuseB
I live in South Florida so it doesn't seem to be strictly a cold weather issue"

Guess where those parts are? Yep you might be close to understanding the K-5 mirror problem. The K-5 is faster as I said, did Pentax test to see if any grease applied would be thrown off and go all over and perhaps contaminate other parts? The K-7 did not have this problem, are the parts being driven a bit hard? Are there many causes for the mirror flop problem? I would not think so.

I can see it taking time for the throwing around of the grease to become a problem, or part failure taking time. The K5 is simply much faster than the K20D and faster than the K-7. Higher speed equals higher throwing force. The K20D was 3fps, K7 5fps, K5 7fps.

The repair "Replaced Aperture Control Contact Pad and Brushes" seems to be a wear problem or contamination problem, maybe. Or just bad parts. Who knows?

This is only a hypothesis now. Just thinking - if repaired does the problem come back again? The firmware answer would be to slow the K5 down to 5 fps kidding (I don't own it, but might be true). But I would not believe its firmware related. I would not believe everything Pentax says. The guys who repaired the unit may know more.
Pure speculation on your part.

Here's some pure speculation on my part: I think it's got nothing to do with FPS.

I think it's more likely an electrical problem in the parts that were replaced and is also somehow related to the live view function.

The miror flops when live view is implemented but without taking a photo. The high voltage of a freshly fully charged battery is shorting out the aperture control and mimicking a call for live view mode.

This is fun making WAG's isn't it?

08-07-2011, 08:36 AM   #197
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This is fun making WAG's isn't it? , Well yea or why would you or me be here doing it?

Have you ever seen a bunch of guys standing around a car with the engine hood up trying to figure out whats wrong? Backyard Mechanics, its fun But you have to have some knowledge of mechanics. And some are better than others.

But! We have the service manuals for every Pentax dSLR made up to the K20D. Thats all many of us need to fix those cameras (if we had the testing/calibration gear; thats key!) From pics of the K-7 and K-5 its apparent they are very close to the same in basic construction to prior models, with only the chassis being the truly different part that makes it smaller and more compact. So we can guess really good!

The problem is reproduced without using live-view in the majority of peoples complaints.


But here is the aperture control system that did not change much from the first Pentax dSLR to the K20D. There are no manuals available for the K-7 or K-5, but from seeing some pics of the insides they did not change much in basic concept of construction. All Pentax bodies are very similar in concept and very different than Nikon bodies. As Ford compared to GM...


In all cases the problem took time to develop. Those parts just don't break or short unless they are bad parts which means all K-5s with that batch of parts need to be recalled. Normally they wear down or become contaminated in time, a long time! IMO its either poor quality parts or contamination. Perhaps more wear, or contamination, by the increased speed of the system, but not "the only" cause just possible. Given the CRIS receipt there can only be a few causes of this problem, now that's a fact. I bet the guy who fixed it knows the exact cause. But as with SDM you may never know. That's why this is even more important and fun. Pentax had to fix the sensor stain issue to sell any K-5. Pentax can just ride this issue out under conditions of its warranty as the SDM. Does anyone know 100% for sure what caused the SDM issue? Joseph Tainter touched on the subject of cultural differences. I have to been educated on those differences. Even the wrong color in Japan can be a bad thing. But its a global economy and just as China wants international community governance over currency and responsibility so should there be on corporate responsibility IMO.

Oh I keep forgetting about touching on the subject of a fully charged battery. If its contamination causing a short with resistance across a path the increased current/voltage will cross that path. Then when the voltage drops its not longer able to pass through the contamination, or bridge that should not be there (a short, but caused by?) this will lower the current/voltage in the rest of the parts or CPU signal. We know in which parts this short developes; we know which parts were changed. Or it can be sending wrong voltage values to the CPU becuase of the contamination, worn parts... Parts being driven beyound spec. Just IMO.




The silver color plate below is on top of the gears seen above.

Last edited by jamesm007; 08-07-2011 at 09:01 AM.
08-07-2011, 09:43 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamesm007 Quote
This is fun making WAG's isn't it? , Well yea or why would you or me be here doing it?

Have you ever seen a bunch of guys standing around a car with the engine hood up trying to figure out whats wrong? Backyard Mechanics, its fun But you have to have some knowledge of mechanics. And some are better than others.

But! We have the service manuals for every Pentax dSLR made up to the K20D. Thats all many of us need to fix those cameras (if we had the testing/calibration gear; thats key!) From pics of the K-7 and K-5 its apparent they are very close to the same in basic construction to prior models, with only the chassis being the truly different part that makes it smaller and more compact. So we can guess really good!

The problem is reproduced without using live-view in the majority of peoples complaints.


But here is the aperture control system that did not change much from the first Pentax dSLR to the K20D. There are no manuals available for the K-7 or K-5, but from seeing some pics of the insides they did not change much in basic concept of construction. All Pentax bodies are very similar in concept and very different than Nikon bodies. As Ford compared to GM...


In all cases the problem took time to develop. Those parts just don't break or short unless they are bad parts which means all K-5s with that batch of parts need to be recalled. Normally they wear down or become contaminated in time, a long time! IMO its either poor quality parts or contamination. Perhaps more wear, or contamination, by the increased speed of the system, but not "the only" cause just possible. Given the CRIS receipt there can only be a few causes of this problem, now that's a fact. I bet the guy who fixed it knows the exact cause. But as with SDM you may never know. That's why this is even more important and fun. Pentax had to fix the sensor stain issue to sell any K-5. Pentax can just ride this issue out under conditions of its warranty as the SDM. Does anyone know 100% for sure what caused the SDM issue? Joseph Tainter touched on the subject of cultural differences. I have to been educated on those differences. Even the wrong color in Japan can be a bad thing. But its a global economy and just as China wants international community governance over currency and responsibility so should there be on corporate responsibility IMO.

Oh I keep forgetting about touching on the subject of a fully charged battery. If its contamination causing a short with resistance across a path the increased current/voltage will cross that path. Then when the voltage drops its not longer able to pass through the contamination, or bridge that should not be there (a short, but caused by?) this will lower the current/voltage in the rest of the parts or CPU signal. We know in which parts this short developes; we know which parts were changed. Or it can be sending wrong voltage values to the CPU becuase of the contamination, worn parts... Parts being driven beyound spec. Just IMO.




The silver color plate below is on top of the gears seen above.
I'm not following your logic. If the parts you are suspicious of have not changed "much" from the 10D/20D/K7 and none of those cameras exhibit ANY of this behavior, where's the correspondence to K5 problems?

As for my WAG about it having to do with the live view, I don't mean that it presents when "using" live view, but that the flopping mimics what live view does, i.e. flop the mirror without taking an image.

I still beleive that this flopping is electronically/electrically based not mechanically based. But again, shop manuals notwithstanding, we're still all just WA guessing.
08-08-2011, 03:03 AM   #199
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>I'm not following your logic. If the parts you are suspicious of have not changed "much" from the 10D/20D/K7 and none of those cameras exhibit ANY of this behavior, where's the correspondence to K5 problems?

Its speed.

We are not guessing as to which parts fail. We can assume since only those parts failed and nothing else was replaced that the problem is in those parts. Because if the root cause is in any other component it would have to be replaced to prevent it in the future, simple logic.

We can see the parts are purely mechanical and simple electrical, no logic chips in those parts. It does have a switch that tells the CPU what position its in and a motor (as seen in the second pic) that makes your lens only go to f/2.8 or f/8 or were ever you set the aperture with the front or rear edials. The body along with moving the mirror up must also move the aperture lever in the back of the lens to the right position.

So we know the 'only' parts in this persons camera that failed and caused their problem. We know what these parts look like and what they do.

Same as SDM we know its someplace in the SDM motor assembly because that's what the techs replace. Its not as much guessing as you would like to make it.

The systems look the same but the parts are different. For example in the manuals of the K20D and K10D they look exact. In the manual for the isD the system looks the very same but has differences in color and other variances like you would get from one year to the next in a Auto.

Assuming the parts from the K5 are the same as the K7 the only difference is speed. Assuming this is not the cause then it may be poorly made parts, contamination, then... or ?? but we know the parts.

But as I always say its IMO. Lets wait and see what the cause is


Last edited by jamesm007; 08-08-2011 at 03:23 AM.
08-08-2011, 10:08 AM   #200
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Just wondering if anyone's K-5 makes a short, sharp "bzzt" sound upon start-up and when waking up from standby. I thought it was the dust removal at work but I just turned it off today and the sound persisted. It seems softer when the lens is dismounted so I think it might involve the aperture control system. My K-5 suffers from the mirror flop disease, but I haven't had time to send it in for repairs yet, not with the 1-2 month turnaround time.
08-08-2011, 01:05 PM   #201
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Yes, it's the new aperture mechanism I believe the noise it's by design and not a defect.
08-09-2011, 02:06 PM   #202
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My K5 reached CRIS today. I hope it makes it back this way within a few weeks. I have the opportunity to buy my Canon 5D2 back, but I do not want it. That camera is hugh, heavy and the L-series lenses are also hugh. For my use it does not do any better than my K5 since I never print larger than 13x19. I love the K5 and I think Pentax did a good job designing it. Being an engineer (aerospace and later medical equipment-now retired), I know sometimes things just get over looked. I bet Pentax knows what is wrong and it is probably a simple fix.
08-09-2011, 04:15 PM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by toooldtocare Quote
I know sometimes things just get over looked. I bet Pentax knows what is wrong and it is probably a simple fix.
I like your positive attitude and I hope you're right!

08-10-2011, 06:07 AM   #204
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give them 2 months...

QuoteOriginally posted by toooldtocare Quote
My K5 reached CRIS today. I hope it makes it back this way within a few weeks. I have the opportunity to buy my Canon 5D2 back, but I do not want it. That camera is hugh, heavy and the L-series lenses are also hugh. For my use it does not do any better than my K5 since I never print larger than 13x19. I love the K5 and I think Pentax did a good job designing it. Being an engineer (aerospace and later medical equipment-now retired), I know sometimes things just get over looked. I bet Pentax knows what is wrong and it is probably a simple fix.
Yup..that's the turn around time..minimum that is...
08-10-2011, 07:22 AM   #205
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My concern.....although I do not shoot at fast FPS.....
*Does Pentax truly know the cause of the problem
*Do they correct the underlying problem, or just replace parts affected?

My 2nd 50-135 is now dead, after the warranty is over and with only very minimal use. It is obvious they only replaced parts and left the problem to recur in the future.

A repair that only lasts for a while, maybe until warranty is out does not constitute a remedy. Even under warranty, the time and inconvenience is not acceptable.
If Ricoh wants to take advantage of the Pentax name, they had better start cleaning it up, and quickly.

Best Regards!
08-10-2011, 07:36 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yes, it's the new aperture mechanism I believe the noise it's by design and not a defect.
+1. The K-7 does the same thing, uses the same mechanism, and is not (AFAIK) affected by the mirror flops.
08-10-2011, 12:23 PM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
My concern.....although I do not shoot at fast FPS.....
*Does Pentax truly know the cause of the problem
*Do they correct the underlying problem, or just replace parts affected?

My 2nd 50-135 is now dead, after the warranty is over and with only very minimal use. It is obvious they only replaced parts and left the problem to recur in the future.

A repair that only lasts for a while, maybe until warranty is out does not constitute a remedy. Even under warranty, the time and inconvenience is not acceptable.
If Ricoh wants to take advantage of the Pentax name, they had better start cleaning it up, and quickly.

Best Regards!
Ahhh...its probably just those peanut shells inside . Mine is still working fine going on 3 years. I have noticed on a coupla occasions, a slow startup, other times its fine. I don't seen any reports on some of the SDM designs, 16-50 and this one seems to be the problematic ones. If they would at least do something with these 2 designs, it would help their headaches, and ours, a lot.

best wishes,
08-10-2011, 02:26 PM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
My 2nd 50-135 is now dead, after the warranty is over and with only very minimal use. It is obvious they only replaced parts and left the problem to recur in the future.
Most repairs are warranted from the date of repair. So if your repair was within the last year, you may be able to get it fixed if it the same problem.
08-14-2011, 02:47 PM   #209
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Sending in K5 for repair.....

I am back from my California trip with the K5 and I will be calling tomorrow to get repair authorization to send in my K5 for repair and will send it in this week. The mirror flops have become extremely annoying and distracting.

I will say this, if I send this camera in and they do not repair it and this issue returns I will sell all of the Pentax gear I have purchased.. and it's quite a bit, the K5 and seven lenses: mostly DA * and Limited lenses. If I cannot depend on Pentax to repair a camera with a documented issue then I need to find a more reliable company and product line.

I simply do not have the time or patience to deal with a camera that does not function properly or a company that does not admit their product has an issue.

The camera is great when it works as it should, not so much when it doesn't.
08-15-2011, 10:32 AM   #210
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Spoke with Pentax Repair Center in Arizona today and described the problem again. This time they DID admit hearing of the problem (they even referred to it as the mirror flopping around) and also stated they were sure there was a fix. When I asked what was causing the issue the guy I spoke with said he did not know but that he was sure there was a fix. hmmmm.. anyway, the K5 will be shipped out tomorrow for repair. Fingers crossed.
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