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08-26-2011, 01:48 PM - 1 Like   #226
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SS, this is an overkill, it scares people away from a great product. I too have spent my entire career traveling the world, working as an engineer in extreme weather conditions on all types of equipment. The camera I used when I started my travels was a Pentax Spotmatic that I bought new in Thailand in 1968. In 1986 after thousands and thousands of shots and dozens of domestic and overseas assignments the camera simply wore out. It was replaced with K1000 that I still have and use from time to time, that camera has also seen most of the corners of the world.

Neither one of those cameras ever saw a repair shop, but they saw hard use. Several years ago I purchased a Pentax istDS, my first DSLR. That camera is still going strong, although I sold it to a friend. I then bought a Canon 5DII, but that camera was like carrying around a slug, hard to pack, hard to hold. I hated it so much that sold it to buy the K5.

My K5 is the first camera I have every had a problem with. I also a film user (Leica M6, Hasselblad, Mamiya C330f, and the K1000). Being an engineer, first aerospace and later medical equipment, I know about designing and testing products for consumer and military use. Sometimes things just get by or are over-looked. Sometimes a vendor changes a component without telling the customer such a Pentax. Sometimes engineers just do not think of everything. But, all products go through development that includes initial design, tests for system performance, torture tests, and product life cycle test. I bet Pentax can tell you to the 10th decimal place what each component in the camera cost down to each screw, nut and IC, as well as their MTBF (mean time between failure). They, like all companies, weight the advantages/dis-advantages of using a cheaper vs more expensive components to build the best products for the cost. When compared to my Canon 5DII, the K5 surpasses it in all categories except sensor size and mega-pixles, and it costs about 1/2 as much. I cannot tell the differences in my photos and I have cropped them and blown them up to rather large sizes. With the Pentax I am using my film lenses instead of the L-series Canon and Zeiss lenses I used to own with the 5DII. Think about it, a 50mm 1.4 Pentax lens from ebay for less than $100 vs a 50mm 1.4 Zeiss for $800+.

Even the Leica M9 has problems. Here is a German camera that retails fro $7,000 for the body alone. They had problems with their sensors (cracking, stains, dead pixels) SD card issues, other electronic issues, parts such as lens preview levers falling off. A top German company producing extremely expensive cameras, also with a bugs. I had a Leica M9 on order and I cancelled it because of the initial problems, but I have considered ordering another one since the bugs are worked out. Trouble is, the K5 is just as good as the Leica is for my uses, so I probably won't.

Give Pentax time to work out this bug, it seems to affect only a small number of users. From what I have seen on this site and others, CRIS may already have a solution. If they don't, you will know about it and then you can look at a Canon, Nikon, or what every you like.

Wayne


Last edited by toooldtocare; 08-26-2011 at 04:01 PM.
08-27-2011, 06:40 AM   #227
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Wayne is 100% right and I am glad he wrote his post to counter my argument or statement.


To the person not buying a K-5 because of these issues I would say this is a mistake. I wrote some of the posts on these problems. But understand I am a Pentax Fanboy so I don't care about all of Nikon's issues or Canons. And believe me Nikon's D7000 has plenty of issues; go have a look. So does almost all dSLRs coming out. IMO from years of researching Pentax still makes the most reliable bodies of them all in the semi-pro catagory.

I wrote the post above - as in an open meeting at a think tank table where everyone can speak, no one is challenged, everyone has an open mind. I am not 100% right. Rupert agreed with my post and I know he only agrees when he feels in his mind something is right. I wrote to members like him (who now has me buying black oil walnut seed by the ton ) and others I have known a long time (and to all fans of Pentax).

However Wayne (who I don't know) is also right in every little part of that camera is made someplace other than a Pentax factory. I work and live in the Detroit area. I know just about all of the parts of Detroit cars were built by sub-contractors around the area, shipped to the factories to be made into cars and component's for cars (like a transmission). There were so many factories around the big 3 Detroit for years had a good economy, very good!

QC was once very poor. The big 3 (GM, Ford, Chrysler; years ago) had to get tough with the suppliers when they were losing business because of their poor QC (and high prices) as compared to other manufactures cars. Even a little plastic knob is made in a Plastic Injection Molding shop and sold to the big 3. So yes they know how much every part cost. They know how long each and every assembly of those parts will last, like a alternator. The quality of cars now is superior compared to the cars made in the 80's and prior. The design life is much higher. Manufactures don't want anything breaking anytime soon. So one, just one supplier can make the whole company look bad!


Pentax is a field tested (by thousands) battle tank camera; they don't break in rain storms! My bodies have never broke being used in the harshest of weather, snow storms, wind driven rain storms. Most folks enjoy the fit, feel, and toughness of Pentax bodies. I tried a Sony A350 and it was a toy in build and ergonomics in all ways next to Pentax. Sony is just now coming out with something that looks like a K20D and is sealed and reviewers say feels good in the hands. But its not time tested.

I do admit Ricoh needs to invest money into Pentax. Sony now has a completely sealed system including the external flash for the A77, but its not tested as Pentax has been for years. And BTW Pentax bodies are still sealed 100% with the flash up. There is a reason there are so many seals in a Pentax body.

Manufactures are now seeing enthusiasts want semi-pros that are tough and sealed. They want a lot at low prices. The A77 is $1200 USA body only. But personally I am sticking with Pentax until I see what happens when its in Ricohs hands.

If the K-5 fits your needs don't let the Sony and some problems stop you. Most don't have problems with the K-5. I just feel CRIS should state the repair done. But I can tell you I have 50,000 clicks on my K20D, used it purposely in storms with not a problem, its a tank, that feels good in your hands and is more customizable than most any other brands (like how you can set ISO range, or what dial or button controls ISO).

Consumer electronics are not investments. But lens, external flashes and other equipment that can only work with the brand you bought does kinda make it an investment for your future photography needs. One may cost you more than another (manufacture) or you may lose all down the road! That sounds like an investment to me.

OK let me rap it up and say it as I see it. Pentax has made bodies as trouble free as any. Hoya was not investing much into Pentax as they had plans to sell. So we never saw new flash systems... But Ricoh bought Pentax and I don't think they bought Pentax to make point and shoot camera with. The will probably want to invest in and grow Pentax. Me I have I K20D and have no pressing need for a new body or any new lens so I can just watch. If I did need a body it would be a Pentax.

EDIT: My K20D rear edial did start acting up a bit a few months ago (skip a number here and there but still usable). But with 48,000 clicks this means I must have spun that dial well over 200,000 times. It was fixed under warranty and I don't see it as a negative. Again google the dials on other dSLRs and when they go bad.

Last edited by jamesm007; 08-27-2011 at 07:13 AM.
08-27-2011, 06:42 AM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamesm007 Quote
Yes its funny how CRIS now does not state what parts were replaced and repaired. This is not a good practice but I blame Hoya/Pentax. Pentax is now hiding the problem, why?
Hi
I am not sure if I agree to that. It could just be the way local repair centres go about their business. My cam was repaired in Melbourne for the mirror flop by the sole PENTAX importer. (Very quickly I may add) Even though at first they said they had not heard of this problem when I dropped the cam off, when I picked up the cam they said they now know that problem is related to a faulty main board. (Some call it top board) So my cam was fitted with a new main board. The EXIF data confirms this, the camera now has a new manufacturing date and internal serial number, shutter count was low and everything was set as if it was a new camera.

Since they had no knowledge of this problem and they fixed it quickly with a new board I deduce from that they must have had contact with PENTAX in Japan (a move every importer would do in this situation) to get instructions. Personally I think a faulty batch of these third party supplied main boards are to blame for the problem.

The other thing is, since possibly not many cameras are effected by this, it is unreasonable to expect for PENTAX to issue a worldwide recall or issue a press release. By just repairing or replacing effected cameras without fuss does not equate to hiding a problem in my opinion. As you can see I am not one who immediately dramatizes everything.

Greetings
08-27-2011, 07:24 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by Schraubstock Quote
Hi
I am not sure if I agree to that. It could just be the way local repair centres go about their business. My cam was repaired in Melbourne for the mirror flop by the sole PENTAX importer. (Very quickly I may add) Even though at first they said they had not heard of this problem when I dropped the cam off, when I picked up the cam they said they now know that problem is related to a faulty main board. (Some call it top board) So my cam was fitted with a new main board. The EXIF data confirms this, the camera now has a new manufacturing date and internal serial number, shutter count was low and everything was set as if it was a new camera.

Since they had no knowledge of this problem and they fixed it quickly with a new board I deduce from that they must have had contact with PENTAX in Japan (a move every importer would do in this situation) to get instructions. Personally I think a faulty batch of these third party supplied main boards are to blame for the problem.

The other thing is, since possibly not many cameras are effected by this, it is unreasonable to expect for PENTAX to issue a worldwide recall or issue a press release. By just repairing or replacing effected cameras without fuss does not equate to hiding a problem in my opinion. As you can see I am not one who immediately dramatizes everything.

Greetings
I have had 4 repairs done by CRIS, once on my dime. Its standard practise for them to state the part needing service here in the USA. When I paid to have my Sigma 17-70mm front element changes they listed the screws, lens name plate... Its not dramatizing as much as you would like to think, not here in the USA.

Example I just sent in my K20D a few month ago under warranty here is the invoice

Repair Performed

EXTENDED WARRANTY
REPLACED REAR E-DIAL ASSEMBLY AND VERIFIED PROPER OPERATION
CLEANED APERTURE CONTROL UNIT AND VERIFIED CONSISTANT EXPOSURE AT ALL SETTINGS
REPLACED BOTTOM COVER AND SEALS
PERFORMED IMAGING SENSOR PIXEL ADJUSTMENT
ADJUSTED AUTO FOCUS OPERATION
CLEANED AND CHECKED TO MANUFACTURER'S SPECIFICATIONS


Have you ever had warranty work done in the USA with CRIS and know how the operate? Before they stated what parts were changed to fix the mirror problem (it was not the main PCB). When it started to spread around they changed the wording, probably Hoya told CRIS not to state the parts needing service which is not how any company I have warranty work (including my car) operates. You always tell the parts needing service or replacements. Its in case the parts go bad again you know if you have a lemon law case or other legal issue or not. Saying "its fixed" is not good business and is like hiding something.

Sorry but I have never in my nearly 50 years seen a repair invoice saying "fixed problem A" end of story. Its was always like above giving the consumer a little info as to what was done. In fact its the law with cars you must tell the customer what was done and replaced even under warranty. Again because other laws come into play if the repair keeps failing, or causes other problems.

I just received in July a free 15.6 led screen brand new Notebook with a one year warranty, so did a whole lot of other people. Back in 2006 HP and a few other companies received defective (claimed they settled out of court) parts from Nvidia and in the class action law suit everyone got money for the repair or like me a new notebook. In order to keep track of Pentax fix... you can't guess or assume, it must be in black and white! Its not so we can get freebies, my original notebook was worth much more than the one they gave me, but it was defective and I had to take one a step down (but 5 years newer ).

Its to protect the consumer from any bad behavior. Truth is you or me do not know what the problem is and what Pentax/Hoya is doing. It could be good, or it could be not so good. Truth is we do not know. Everyone can write what they want but until CRIS says whats being done, its all guessing. Guessing that may hurt some. And with Hoya about to lose Pentax...



BTW do you know how Pentax fixed the mirror over-run problems here in the USA through CRIS cameras according to a couple invoices -

SanMat
I was told the same thing when I sent my K5 back. On the paperwork that came back with my camera the Repair Description said:
Replaced Aperture Control Unit
Replaced Aperture Control Contact Pad and Brushes
It will be interesting to see if your paperwork says the same
SuseB
I live in South Florida so it doesn't seem to be strictly a cold weather issue"

It seems they changed the wrong part on your K-5. They may have cleaned the apature control which will let the problem go away for a sometime but it will come back. See the problem now? Your repair for the very same problem was a new board. The repair Pentax made here in the USA until they stopped writing down what they did is above- Replaced Aperture Control Unit
Replaced Aperture Control Contact Pad and Brushes. Now is your K-5 fully repaired and there are two cuases for the mirror-over run problem? Or are we guessing and no one will know the truth as in SDM.


Last edited by jamesm007; 08-27-2011 at 07:54 AM.
08-27-2011, 08:01 AM   #230
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In any event, I'm a happy camper. I got my k5 back from CHRIS in a reasonable time and it's been working fine.
08-27-2011, 10:07 PM   #231
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Hi Jamesm007

Oh dear, what can I say, seems like you guys constantly get a raw deal over there. Why is everything so complicated in your country. (A culture of litigation I guess plays a big part )

I travel to Japan a lot and I made a number of very good friends there over the years. All of them are very keen photographers and one is a diehard Pentax man. When discussing the mirror flopping with him (I thought I may be able to find out a bit more of what is going on in this respect through him) I was told that Pentax know of the problem (well really, how could they not) and replacing main boards there also. I reckon it points to a faulty main board batch which was delivered to Pentax.

When in my previous post I said: "As you can see I am not one who immediately dramatizes everything" It was not a dig at you, it was only a general reflection of myself.

Greetings
08-28-2011, 08:55 AM   #232
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Thanks...

I do somewhat agree about litigation but sway a bit when it comes to consumer protection rights. Even in Japan folks started to mistrust manufactors. Its becoming a world wide problem! Or has became a world wide problem! I do hope your K-5 is fixed for life and gives you years of great service.

I just read this today. Have a read of it. Its here on Pentax Forums and updated as of today. Very sad story and why consumers do need someplace to go for relief.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-technical-troubleshooting/148809-...ed-help-3.html

Regards
James M
08-28-2011, 09:55 AM   #233
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BTW I will leave it up to CRIS to dig into state law and the FTC to decide if they should change what is being done (written on customer receipt) in the repair of a very expensive consumer camera. But here is the law in CA USA. Even if under warranty the parts must be listed. In case future problems arise from this problem.

Invoices
All work performed by a service dealer must be recorded on an invoice that describes all service work done and all parts supplied. A copy of the invoice must be given to the customer even if no fee is charged (i.e., warranty repairs).
1. When is an invoice required?
An invoice is required when the equipment is returned to the customer.
2. What must be on the invoice?


It must be legible and contain:
  • Service dealer Information
    - Business name
    - Address
    - Telephone number
    - State registration number
  • Date invoice was prepared
  • If the equipment is removed from the customer's home, home office, or private vehicle, the address and registration number of the service dealer where the equipment was taken, if different than above.
  • Customer name and address
  • Description of equipment repaired including:
    - Make
    - Model
    - Serial number
  • Statement of total charges
  • Itemized list of all parts replaced indicating:
    - Parts covered under warranty
    - Parts not covered by warranty and the specific charge for any parts replaced
  • Itemized labor services indicating:
    - Services covered under warranty
    - Services not covered under warranty and the specific charge for service performed
  • Itemized list of any other charges, such as a service call charge
  • Identification of any used or exchanged parts and the charges for those parts
  • The signature or employee number of the person who prepared the invoice
  • The signature or employee number of the person who performed the repair
  • The following statement:
  • "An estimate as required (California Business and Professions Code Section 9844) for repairs shall be given to the customer by the service dealer in writing, and the service dealer may not charge for work done or parts supplied in excess of the estimate without the prior consent of the customer. Where provided in writing, the service deal may charge a reasonable fee for services provided in determining the nature of the malfunction in preparation of a written estimate for repair. For further information contact the Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repairs, Department of Consumer Affairs, Sacramento, 95814."


08-28-2011, 04:16 PM   #234
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Hi James
All these consumer protection laws with slight variations do exist here in OZ also.
Any sort of wishy-washy statement like "Fixed mirror overrun" (very creative wording by the way) would not be acceptable here either. Also exchanged broken/faulty parts have to be returned to the customer if it is a paid repair. (Bring your own forklift for heavy parts ) If it is a warranty job this is not the case.

Greetings
08-28-2011, 04:43 PM   #235
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Got the K5 back...

Got it just in time to shoot the menace at Long beach....It took over 2 months for them to repair it....

08-28-2011, 08:47 PM   #236
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I have mirror flop, have not ever shot in bursts on this body.

4-5 months old when it started flopping.
stops only when battery wears down.
08-29-2011, 05:57 AM   #237
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Had one double-flop while on holiday. Batteries (in-body and dbg-4 AA) close to fully charged. Could not repeat the issue. A photo was taken with the second flop on a half of the picture. I don't know if I pressed both triggers at or around the same time. Not too worried about this, as it only happened once.
08-29-2011, 09:07 AM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamesm007 Quote
Thanks...

I do somewhat agree about litigation but sway a bit when it comes to consumer protection rights. Even in Japan folks started to mistrust manufactors. Its becoming a world wide problem! Or has became a world wide problem! I do hope your K-5 is fixed for life and gives you years of great service.

I just read this today. Have a read of it. Its here on Pentax Forums and updated as of today. Very sad story and why consumers do need someplace to go for relief.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-technical-troubleshooting/148809-...ed-help-3.html

Regards
James M
This was my posting! I am extremely upset that after them taking over 6 weeks to fix my camera (replaced my circuit board), 3 weeks later the entire problems are beginning to repeat itself. I plan on calling pentax this afternoon, this is rediculous, I cannot go another 6 weeks without my k-5 (I do have a k20 backup), or can I afford the $100 a week for rental!
08-29-2011, 09:16 AM   #239
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I just called Pentax, they want me to send my camera to CRIS yet again to replace the circuit board yet again, even though this one hasn't gotten fried yet. I am emotionally done with dealing with Pentax, this is rediculous!
08-29-2011, 01:48 PM   #240
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So glad I ran across this thread, as I started experiencing the "flop" in July while on vacation. Like many mentioned in their posts, I attributed it to high heat (we were at the beach and temps were mid-90s) and/or to very high contrast scenes (shooting toward the water, etc.). Turning the camera off and then back on always made the issue stop (at least for a short period of time), and it did not happen all the time or every day. Needless to say, I was stumped. It happened again recently - not too hot, but high-contrast (shooting kayakers on a river on a sunny day) was again part of the equation.

I just spoke with somebody at CRIS and it sounds like I'll be sending my baby in for repair, as I love it so and want it to work 100%.
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