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09-11-2011, 09:06 PM   #16
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Why didn't you just return it to the store? Some places have 1 month return policies I would have returned it at the first sign of trouble. Lucky for me my K5 is perfect, I also should say I don't believe in some kind of quality control plague... Squeaky wheels with a loud speaker if you ask me... Sorry for your troubles but if you switch to another brand you WILL have the same problems, at some point. Even Leica makes lemons.

09-11-2011, 11:27 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Just thinking out aloud but why is it it there seems to be a disproportionate number of issues from US posters, and new users at that? Is it because of the very easy return policy also means that the retailers will just ship to the next buyer those problematic cameras circulating around. In the past I have on two occasions received lenses from US online sellers that were supposed to be new but were in fact not. Over where I am, we have a large concentration of K-5 users, a next to zero return policy among our brick and mortar camera shops and we don't even see the kind of issues that seems widespread in the US. My own local repair service relating to the stain issue was resolved within 2 weeks back in Dec last year and my K-5 has been flawless ever since.
This made me wondering too, so I talked to the pro-retailer where I buy all my gear. They told me that, of all the K5 body's sold from the very beginning till now, they had only two returned with stains and one with a mother board problem (*). They say that this hardly represents 3% of the whole lot sold, and that seems to be some a kind of general 'average' over here.
I think that the main problem with the K5 is situated in the US, this is the place, after Japan, where the early production runs are sold and these ones are still suffering from early childhood illnesses...
Over here in Europe, we are served a while later than the US, which seems to be turning in to an advantage, and combined whit that famous warranty thing as described above, I believe that this might be the main pain point...

BTW, forced by law as stipulated in the EEC regulations, over here all consumer machinery and apparatus have to be covered by a minimum of two years full factory warranty.
So, I am enjoying these 'advantages', my K5 works flawlessly...

(*) They don't count the AF issues because this can easily be solved by tuning and some software things whit in a few days... The real stuff is when the body has to be opened and parts have to be replaced which is costly and time consuming!
09-11-2011, 11:45 PM   #18
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Hi

Demand a new camera and tell them it can't be repaired because the proof of this is the condition of the cam as it was returned to you.
It also points at a repair centre or a person at the repair centre who is not properly trained or is not up to it. Not everybody can be good at this job.

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09-12-2011, 01:30 AM   #19
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Man I feel your pain. I was in heaven for the first month then mine went to pieces. It was finally fixed and am enjoying a good camera. But I switched brands. I really like photography and the K-5 almost killed it for me. But there are many with no problems. Also I bought mine from Japan so it might of been one of the first. Who know. History now.

09-12-2011, 06:53 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
Admittedly, I am sitting here in the "peanut gallery", I do not have a K5 - yet. However I am looking at picking one up probably by the end of the year. I have a rather large investment in Pentax glass - so to my way of thinking I have no real alternative to the K5 other than waiting for another product cycle - the K3 and make a decision.

What I am learning from all of this is (specifically for the K5 and maybe the K3):[LIST=1][*]Don't be an early adopter. This is a tried and true position in the IT community. Wait 6 months and let all the early adopters debug the system. If everyone were to do this, it would devastate the new product introduction. Pentax - you have a problem that needs attention. NOW!
...
I was one of the first few to get hold of a K-5 (even earlier than the US or Europe) and aside from the sensor stain issue which was resolved before Christmas last year I've never had any complaints with my K-5. I was also an early adopter of the K-7 and K20D and I've not run into any issues, so I would take a contrarian view to you on this. You could just as well get a lemon buying now rather than later.

QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
I do have a fair investment in Pentax bodies and lenses. Yes, I am concerned.
  • K20D, DA 10-17FE, DA 12-24, DA 16-45, DA 55-300, FA 31 Ltd, K 28 Shift,
  • Contax Carl Zeiss 28mm f2.8 Distagon T*, 85mm f2.8 Sonnar T* (modified to the K mount)
  • K100D, DA 18-55, DA 50-200, A 50/1.7, Tokina 2x
  • Spotmatic IIa, SMC Tak 55/f1.8, Auto Tak 85/f1.8
  • note - all the bodies purchased new - going back to 1970
So, now I am done with my rant, and I put my asbestos Kevlar underwear on, and have taken a shower of flame retardant. Now waiting for the incoming.

Seriously, your collection of lenses is nothing much to shout about, and many of the legacy stuff is not gonna fetch that much in today's market. Instead of commenting on the sidelines, isn't it time to get a K-5 and enjoy the enhanced improvements this camera is capable of?
09-12-2011, 07:12 AM   #21
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Whatever the outcome, assuming the buyer is straight up and is not a part of the problem, the end result should render some sort of justice and fairness...as much as can be possible. We all suffer failures in merchandise, not just cameras, but in autos, repairs, homes, clothing and most anything made, but we do need to be "made whole" to the best extent we can be.

When this happens, we can move on and hope for better in the future. When it doesn't, we need to squeal like stuck pigs........no matter what the product is, we work too hard to be deprived of its intended use without remedy. To temper that a little, we need to be patient also, and that is not always easy.....not for me, or many others, but we do need to try to be patient and let the seller or mfg. have a fair opportunity to make the wrong right.
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09-12-2011, 08:18 AM   #22
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Before I go trundling off to work, I just paged over to the camera serial number database for the K5. 507 cameras registered to date. Then I scanned through the 15 pages and counted the serial numbers in red - 200 serial numbers. I tried to ensure I did not count a serial number twice paging down through each page (thus the count may be off by a couple). That works out to approximately 39.4% of the K5 bodies that users have reported has some type of problem that caused them to flag it. Since there are users from around the world here, and since this is not a random sample, folks self identify, and therefore may be a tad more susceptible to wanting to report problems than the average user, this number may be a bit on the high end.

That said, 39% is significantly higher than the 3% philippe indicated - by an order of magnitude. Why?

So let's cut the 39% in half in order to attempt to normalize it (to some degree) for over the zealous users just wanting to report errors or problems. That bring us down to approximately 20%. That is still a very large discrepancy against the 3% mark. So I ask again Why?

Let's lop it in half again (thereby eliminating about 75% of the problem reports). This forum may just attract a lot of folks who wine a lot and folks who have that magical touch that causes appliances to malfunction. That brings the the percentage down to 10% which is still 3 times more than the 3% cited. That again is still a very significant number.

Sure there are some problems in these numbers. 500 units is a small sample in hopefully a very large population of K5 bodies. Anyone care to venture a guess as to the number actually sold and in use - 50K, 100K units?

Judging from some polls here, a lot of folks look, but do not participate. You might have 300+ views with only 20 actual votes, and say 5 posting responding. Should that make the total population represented by the 507 respondents, more of a 5000 body representation here on the Forum? I don't know? That would then be more representative of the population at large and indicate a 4% problem rate (200/5000=0.04) which is essentially matches the number philippe reported.

Still not doing anything magical here to skew the statistics. Just comparing general sizes of numbers derived from the only source available.
___________________________

The point I was making creampuff, was that regardless of the equipment I have or not, I spent money and Pentax received it (for the most part - other than the older used items). I am still a customer. I have investment involved here. There is residual value (either in $ or in use) - not the original value (and I did not claim that), but value none the less - that is in part attached to Pentax's reputation. Do I have the best gear - totally irreverent - don't care, but it works for what I shoot - Landscapes. I might say, that I might have been tempted to go with some other lenses from time to time, but I have never acquired a SDM lens, because a lens is primarily optical in nature, and I did not want to acquire additional "electronic" problems. Gee, there might be a common thread here between K5 bodies and SDM lenses. Just wondering out loud. Inquiring minds would like to know.

Yes a K5, I believe would help my photography. And this is my point. The problems, and how Pentax is going about resolving them, does give me pause to think and wonder just what may happen to me.
___________________________

You can slice and dice the numbers anyway you wish. The bottom line is that Pentax appears to have several problems:
  1. K5 failure rates that appear to be abnormally higher than what would normally be expected.
  2. A repair facility that takes an abnormally long time to repair and return the units.
  3. The long repair time would tend to indicate a lack of spare parts locally available.
  4. A re-repair rate that appears to too appears to be higher than normal.
  5. Rather than a single problem, a set of problems that appear after the first one is identified and fixed.

Pentax does have positive control over this. My K20 needed repair a year ago. It waited 3 weeks on the shelf for parts to come in from Japan - new electronic "guts". Why not pre-position 100 sets of electronics here in the US at the repair facility and cut 3 weeks off the repair time - especially when you (or your customers) have identified problems such as these. After they received the parts, it was a day and then I received my camera back. That is a very simple fix. That would also, remove an awful lot of complaining. Maybe there was a problem but it was quickly fixed and I was back on the road. That is being proactive on Pentax's part. It is within their control to turn lemons into lemonade to a degree. Make the best of the problem.

09-12-2011, 08:51 AM   #23
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Well, Intersted_observer, I am glad you reacted!
These 3% are, as i mentioned, not the real amount of K5's who had to be serviced.
Those suffering from AF issues where not counted because this issue was not considered as being that terrible, and I thick it was solved by the retailer's service. Software updates and AF calibration are not that demanding, I guess, and I know they have a rather 'handy' guy in house.

And, yes, why should the majority of the K5 users post about how happy they are with their flawlessly working camera? Actually they should!

09-12-2011, 11:37 AM   #24
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The price of K-5 now is very good, i could buy it now, but i won't. For me the darn lens release button falling off the camera is reason enough not to buy it. I would be more preoccupied to see if it's there than to take pictures. I'll keep the K-x for old manual glass, as i believe AF is not that great. And I'll buy a Nikon, not sure D300s or D7000 for AF accuracy (perhaps D300s, D7000 seem to be in the same boat as K-5). I was never tempted by the famous Pentax primes, so i won't miss those.
09-12-2011, 12:19 PM   #25
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If you have no desire for Pentax lenses or ergonomics, fine. However I wouldn't avoid a camera because of the small chance a plastic button might break. All you need to do is buy the ~ $20 extended warranty for piece of mind. I didn't... Now I have around 5 months left (3 of which the camera ha basically been away). At least I haven't had to spend any money on shipping costs for this ordeal.
09-12-2011, 12:20 PM   #26
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IOs comments are spot-on, IMO.
I also do feel for the OP.
Repair parts having to come on demand from overseas is simply insane, which leads to the 4+ week turnaround time, which is excessive, especially if we compare a similarly priced Apple laptop - most things can be fixed locally, with parts on hand, or there within days. No manufacturer wants to replace every defective unit with a brand new in box unit, and that's entirely understandable - but one of three, or a combination of them, needs to happen:
1. stock more parts locally
2. (which will) decrease turnaround time
3. Improve QC, both in assembly line, and from what I'm reading, in repair situations as well.

The 'real' defect numbers are tough to guess at, but OI various numbers make sense - people who post are far more likely to do so with complaints over "i love my camera," and to do so more frequently as well. Lots of people simply don't post online about their hobbies (or jobs), so it's quite easy to skew or exaggerate the numbers - people who normally wouldn't have any interest in all posting to PF or elsewhere, once they get a defective product (perceived or real) are likely to now start posting everywhere about it, while those pre-disposed towards not posting, with a defect free product, don't have the same inclination or push to "share" their experiences. And of course, most companies treat their sales vs defect numbers as a secret.

From the forum and user perspective, I've found it odd that I haven't seen a single thread itemizing all of the various issues, and more importantly, how to test for each of them. It's certainly not to the casual users/consumers/purchasers benefit that no such information seems to be available in a single location. The mirror flop issue is obvious enough. I [b]think[b/] the stain issue may have to do with the use of live view and heat..maybe. AF and FF/BF issues? I have no idea. The lens button falling off - obvious (and sad) enough. Others? I'm guessing there are probably a few more which I haven't even come across reference to at this point - it would be great to see a single sticky thread, possibly including most commonly perceived 'issues' that are user issues as well.

From a Pentax perspective, as a new K5 owner, I plunked down quite a chunk of change (for me, for a camera), on a new K5. The durability and WR were very high up on my list of priorities, followed closely by IQ, and I spent ~$500 more than I would have for a Nikon D5100, or around the same as a D7000 - either of which would very likely have suited my personal perceived 'needs,' but for durability and WR. I likely would have gone with the D5100 due to $, but there wasn't an equivalent Pentax offering (maybe k-r, but irrelevant for the discussion). Knock on wood, no problems out of the box, and it's taking some good (and some lousy/user error ) pictures, I have zero complaints at this time. I know in advance that it's highly likely this purchase will need to last me for 3 years, perhaps longer. I've spent considerable amount of time researching Pentax lenses, picked up a pair of decent used lenses, and expect to make additional lens investments in the future. It's looking more and more conceivable that my wife may wind up as involved in the new hobby as I am, so after some time as well as a few classes and a few thousand shots taken, it's a possibility that I may find myself picking up a second camera 6 months out or so, which, barring any problems, might well be a K-r (or it's replacement), a refurbed K7, or depending on finances and timing, maybe even a second K5, or it's replacement. By that time, I'd expect a fairly $$ lens purchase or two to be happening as well, after which we'd be looking at upgrading one of the now two cameras perhaps every ~2 years.

I'm not immune to the many issues threads/posts, so I've already picked up the $20 extra 2 year warrantee, but the experience we wind up having with the K5 and Pentax will more than likely decide if we'll be spending thousands of dollars with Pentax over the next 6-24 months, or if instead the 'Pentax fund' gets frozen and we look at Nikon (or possibly panasonic micro 4/3rd) replacements for the future. I really like the options for older glass, love the WR and metal construction and 'should be more durable,' but if it turns out instead to be a WR, magnesium clad turd, or the camera is gone for months at a time for repairs, then Pentax will have lost not only my current and future sales, but also those of several people I tend to influence in their technical or mechanical toy purchases, as well. I like doing the research and hands on on certain items, so have influenced a fair number of people in computer/laptop/tablet/software purchases, motorcycles and cars, and similar 'fun toys,' and in turn, each of those people may influence others, some of which never may post on a PF or elsewhere, just as with some other of the many PF users.

Regardless, from a consumer standpoint maybe it makes sense to hope for the best (no issues), but plan for the worst. The saying about doing the same thing and expecting different results (repeated returns/'fixes' and 'maybe it will work now') doesn't sit well with me, personally. I can tolerate a single return/repair cycle, if others are reporting good success, but after a second repair, I'd be demanding a new camera or a one week turnaround, as obviously their 'checkup' during the first repair did nothing to catch the new problem before it broke (again), and if they follow relatively standard practice of using refurbished circuit boards from prior returns to do new fixes (I see nothing to counter this assumption, with people reporting repaired cameras with different/older SNs, etc.), it certainly brings not only repair center 'check up' quality into question, but also the QC of whomever is refurbishing those parts, as well as component and/or design concerns.

Pentax certainly has a hand in which way consumers decide to lean - a quick turnaround on repairs, with no subsequent '6 months later' repairs being needed, or by dragging feet on ordering parts from Japan for common parts, and having cameras need multiple repairs, each of which may take more than a month...there's definitely room for improvement and customer goodwill in there.

I kind of like the underdog companies, myself, and Pentax has a great history in cameras and a good reputation - they should do everything they can to retain that, or as OI said, they're not just in the 'lesser known/less popular' brand, they'll also get a rep for low quality. With their relative lack of marketing (compared to canikon) and shelf space, satisfied customers can be the best free marketing they could ask for, or the worst if too many customers are left feeling unsatisfied from their single or multiple repair experiences. Note - this all applies equally to any brand out there, of course - I'm aware the D7000 has some AF and hotspot issues, maybe others, but the question about percentage and severity of issues, vs marketing and reputation, shelf space, word of mouth, all still apply, just moreso to those with lesser marketing, shelf space and/or brand recognition than others, as well as with the severity of the issue(s) at hand.

I'll keep rooting for the underdog until/IF such a thing becomes foolhardy, which time will tell. The few (I think?) dealing with second or third repairs have more patience than I. Apple will replace an entire system if brought in for a third time, and I'd be pushing for similar treatment here, as well as if any repairs are expected to run over a few weeks.
09-12-2011, 01:29 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by rtpguy Quote
...

From a Pentax perspective, as a new K5 owner, I plunked down quite a chunk of change (for me, for a camera), on a new K5. The durability and WR were very high up on my list of priorities, followed closely by IQ, and I spent ~$500 more than I would have for a Nikon D5100, or around the same as a D7000 - either of which would very likely have suited my personal perceived 'needs,' but for durability and WR. I likely would have gone with the D5100 due to $, but there wasn't an equivalent Pentax offering (maybe k-r, but irrelevant for the discussion). Knock on wood, no problems out of the box, and it's taking some good (and some lousy/user error ) pictures, I have zero complaints at this time. I know in advance that it's highly likely this purchase will need to last me for 3 years, perhaps longer. I've spent considerable amount of time researching Pentax lenses, picked up a pair of decent used lenses, and expect to make additional lens investments in the future. It's looking more and more conceivable that my wife may wind up as involved in the new hobby as I am, so after some time as well as a few classes and a few thousand shots taken, it's a possibility that I may find myself picking up a second camera 6 months out or so, which, barring any problems, might well be a K-r (or it's replacement), a refurbed K7, or depending on finances and timing, maybe even a second K5, or it's replacement. By that time, I'd expect a fairly $$ lens purchase or two to be happening as well, after which we'd be looking at upgrading one of the now two cameras perhaps every ~2 years.

I'm not immune to the many issues threads/posts, so I've already picked up the $20 extra 2 year warrantee, but the experience we wind up having with the K5 and Pentax will more than likely decide if we'll be spending thousands of dollars with Pentax over the next 6-24 months, or if instead the 'Pentax fund' gets frozen and we look at Nikon (or possibly panasonic micro 4/3rd) replacements for the future. I really like the options for older glass, love the WR and metal construction and 'should be more durable,' but if it turns out instead to be a WR, magnesium clad turd, or the camera is gone for months at a time for repairs, then Pentax will have lost not only my current and future sales, but also those of several people I tend to influence in their technical or mechanical toy purchases, as well. I like doing the research and hands on on certain items, so have influenced a fair number of people in computer/laptop/tablet/software purchases, motorcycles and cars, and similar 'fun toys,' and in turn, each of those people may influence others, some of which never may post on a PF or elsewhere, just as with some other of the many PF users.

...
In my opinion, there are no other issues than the ones visible on the forums. Saying otherwise doesn't make sense without proof. Actually, the stain issue seems long dead and I only recall seeing one thread about the button breaking and that was a long time ago too. How many people even had that happen? Pentax handled the stain issue very well.

I've spoken with someone connected to the camera industry and said something like this: Canon has the best service, but they have a disproportionately higher rate of needing service than the other brands. Pentax and Nikon have around the same lead times and are pretty similar overall. Sony has a terrible service process, but they don't require service that often. I don't recall him mentioning any of the smaller brands. Of course this isn't considering the professional level service the big two can provide, but what normal people like us receive.

FYI, I just sent an email to Mark Davis at Pentax and he responded within an hour. Looks like my camera is already on its way back to me and was shipped 9/9. So that was around a week turn around this time. Here is to hoping it's a solid repair job this time. So when it comes down to it, quality employees like Mark allow me to see a company in a good light. CRIS.. not so much, Pentax... for sure, thanks to Mark.
09-12-2011, 02:17 PM   #28
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@sj - thanks for that. Hopefully my long post isn't taken as hoping or expecting issues or anything else, I certainly hope there are none. Just acknowledging what seems to be a pattern of less than fast turnaround for many, and/or some people with multiple returns. Sony has irked me too many times previously to consider them in the future, unless it's a second or third gen stellar product.

I see you're in the US as well, maybe this will help others (and sorry if I missed it) - did you send yours in to somewhere besides CRIS?
While it seems there are at least 10 US service centers ( Digital Cameras and Accessories - Official PENTAX Imaging Web Site , only one with pentax in the name..)), it seems everyone sends them in to CRIS - is there a valid reason for this?
09-12-2011, 02:50 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by rtpguy Quote
@sj - thanks for that. Hopefully my long post isn't taken as hoping or expecting issues or anything else, I certainly hope there are none. Just acknowledging what seems to be a pattern of less than fast turnaround for many, and/or some people with multiple returns. Sony has irked me too many times previously to consider them in the future, unless it's a second or third gen stellar product.

I see you're in the US as well, maybe this will help others (and sorry if I missed it) - did you send yours in to somewhere besides CRIS?
While it seems there are at least 10 US service centers ( Digital Cameras and Accessories - Official PENTAX Imaging Web Site , only one with pentax in the name..)), it seems everyone sends them in to CRIS - is there a valid reason for this?
I looked into that before sending the camera in a second time. CRIS is the only one who is authorized to do warranty repairs. So if you were to send the camera to a company that is closer to you, all they would do is send it to CRIS. However, if a camera is not under warranty anymore, these local companies would do the repairs. There was one such company 90 miles from me where I could have just driven my camera to them, but they said for warranty service is must go to Arizona. I wish Pentax would have more authorized warranty repair centers so the camera wouldn't have to be sent such a long distance in some of our cases...

The turn-around this time from CRIS was of course much much faster, and lately I've been seeing people comment that they have had their similar issue fixed within 2 weeks or so in the USA. I'm guessing they ordered a stock of replacement parts ~4 months ago after the issue started showing up. I'll just cross my fingers at this point and hope the camera arrives 100% functional and stays that way (issue fixed, everything that worked still works).
09-12-2011, 06:36 PM   #30
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With a new model of anything coming on to the market isn't it established practice to include with the first shipment to the main distributor/agent/importer all the parts as spares that would enable a total build from scratch of the item? (A few times over) There could even be a consumer law for this, but I am not sure. In my country, I seem to recall, it is not permissible to sell consumer goods like cameras, TVs and such like if an adequate service facility is not in place. Again I am not sure, but I think this is the case.
I think this could be why the sole accredited importer (C.R. Kennedy) here took only 12 days to replace the faulty main board of my cam. (12 days, totally acceptable) This suggests they already had the part sitting on the shelf. It also indicates that they where not snowed under with PENTAX repairs.

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