Should battery go flat this soon.

Mychael · 11-16-2011, 10:25 PM

Charge light went out after about 4.5-5hrs of charge. I'll leave it on for another hour then try it in the camera.
If everything works then it was just a flat battery and the next thing to see is if it re-occurs.

kev.pride · 11-16-2011, 11:12 PM

Sometimes new batteries take a few cycles to get to peak performance. Until I got a new Sigma with OS & HSM I never seemed to run out of battery unless I was using macro with LiveView. Now I'm finding with constant use the battery will discharge pretty quick using HSM & OS - especially if I review a lot.

Suppose thats what a fully charged spare is for.

Philoslothical · 11-17-2011, 01:19 AM

The other thing to consider is that you should never let a Li-ion battery completely discharge. They don't always fully recover from that. It's much healthier for the battery to top it off when it's still at 90% than it is to let it get to 10%. I make a point of charging every day if I'm shooting, every second or third if it's just sitting on the shelf, and it has performed predictably well for me so far.

Mychael · 11-17-2011, 02:06 AM

Agreed about being bad to flatten them. I'm just surprised it's happened so soon. My P&S can keep a battery with charge for months.

pentup · 11-17-2011, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Philoslothical

It's much healthier for the battery to top it off when it's still at 90% than it is to let it get to 10%.

Wow. I didn't know that. In fact, I had assumed something close to the opposite was true -- what happened to the "memory effect" with rechargeable batteries that people used to talk about? I had always thought it was best practice to periodically drain a battery completely, because if you started recharging too soon, the battery would "remember" the amount of new charge it was obtaining as if that percentage represented the whole capacity of the battery, thus depleting the total storage capacity. Is that no longer true? Was it ever?

Also, in regard to the battery charger that comes with the K-5, I saw a thread here recently claiming that over-charging the battery could contribute to the mirror flop issue...

One thing that makes this tricky is of course that the battery indicator is pretty much useless; it'll seem to show a full charge, then suddenly you're nearly out of juice.

EDIT: Ok, I see I was r(mis)emembering a purported phenomenon with ni-cad batteries, not all rechargeables:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_effect

But note this passage from that article:

Temporary effectsVoltage depression due to long-term over-charging

A common process often ascribed to memory effect is voltage depression. In this case the peak voltage of the battery drops more quickly than normal as it is used, even though the total energy remains almost the same. In modern electronic equipment that monitors the voltage to indicate battery charge, the battery appears to be draining very quickly. To the user it appears the battery is not holding its full charge, which seems similar to memory effect. This is a common problem with high-load devices such as digital cameras.
Voltage depression is caused by repeated over-charging of a battery, which causes the formation of small crystals of electrolyte on the plates. These can clog the plates, increasing resistance and lowering the voltage of some individual cells in the battery. This causes the battery as a whole to seem to discharge rapidly as those individual cells discharge quickly and the voltage of the battery as a whole suddenly falls. This effect is very common, as consumer trickle chargers typically overcharge.

Sounds to me like overcharging could cause more problems than undercharging... ?

reeftool · 11-17-2011, 06:25 AM

My original K10D battery is going strong after 4 years. I have to remind myself to charge it sometimes as when I'm just doing some occasional shooting, it may be weeks between charges. I've never really counted pictures per charge but I shot 1100+ on one day last winter outside in below freezing weather at a motorcycle ice racing event. I would say something isn't right with your battery if it only stays up for 3 hours. Mine has been so reliable I forget about it sometimes.

ukwoody · 11-17-2011, 06:35 AM

Please take 5 mins and read this article all about Li-ion batteries, very informative.

http://www.lxe.com/pdf/wp_Li-IonBatteries.pdf

regards
Woody

philbaum · 11-17-2011, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by pentup

Also, in regard to the battery charger that comes with the K-5, I saw a thread here recently claiming that over-charging the battery could contribute to the mirror flop issue...

Please don't repeat this. The full charge associated with some mirror flopping was just a SYMPTOM, not the CAUSE. All cameras with mirror flopping have been fixed by fixing the body, and no replacement of battery chargers was ever required.

pentup · 11-17-2011, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by philbaum

The full charge associated with some mirror flopping was just a SYMPTOM, not the CAUSE.

Explain that please. How could a "full charge" be a symptom of anything but having been charged?

philbaum · 11-18-2011, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by pentup

Explain that please. How could a "full charge" be a symptom of anything but having been charged?

From a number of reports, the mirror flopping happened more often with a full charge in the battery, but the camera should have been able to function properly anyway. Its an association but not a cause. I never had mirror flopping, but i measured the voltage on my two batteries, one a pentax, the other a third party. And the voltage is remarkably consistent between both batteries and between my batteries and a few reports from those who had mirror flopping and checked their batteries. The chargers turn themselves off when they reach a certain voltage. Its apparently not good to leave the batteries on chargers for in indefinite period, but the voltage doesn't get any higher from my few checks.

Pentax has become very good at fixing this problem with the bodies, once they discovered what the cause is. But they aren't saying exactly what the fix is. But the fix has nothing to do with the chargers or batteries.

ChrisA · 11-19-2011, 11:59 AM

My first K-5 went back for various reasons, one of which was extremely short battery life (about 300 shots per charge, two different brand new batteries).

Too early to say with the replacement, and additionally I'm now using an Eye-Fi card which uploads the pictures to my computer across my wireless network. That must use some power, so I'm guessing I should expect less than the number of shots the manual refers to.

I'm writing down the number of shots per charge, so I should have some data in due course.

toooldtocare · 11-19-2011, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by ukwoody

Please take 5 mins and read this article all about Li-ion batteries, very informative.

http://www.lxe.com/pdf/wp_Li-IonBatteries.pdf

regards
Woody

Thanks Woody for posting that. I had seen something like that before, but it is nice to refresh ourselves with the facts.

Wayne

pentup · 11-19-2011, 04:02 PM

Wow:

"New Li-Ion batteries should be stored in a location with ambient temperatures between 70º to 100ºF and at 40% state of charge or
lower.... Batteries stored in cold environments will have to be stabilized within normal temperature ranges prior to recharging and use."

70º F? It's nowhere near that in my apartment during the winter.

Only way I could warm them up prior to recharging would be to carry them around in my pocket for a while...

Philoslothical · 11-19-2011, 04:51 PM

Apartment implies you're renting? In NY the minimum standard is 68 degrees daytime, lower at night. Always good to know one's rights, eh?

pentup · 11-19-2011, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Philoslothical

Apartment implies you're renting? In NY the minimum standard is 68 degrees daytime, lower at night. Always good to know one's rights, eh?

I'm aware of my rights, I assure you. And (over) heating the apartment when I'm not even here would be silly just for the sake of a battery.

But you didn't quote the rest:

"Between the hours of 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM, if the temperature outside falls below 40 degrees, the inside temperature is required to be at least 55 degrees Fahrenheit." That's a ways off from 70. Anyway, 68 would be far too warm for me, and during most of the day when I'm not at home I would find it absurd to keep temperatures up that high.

Anyway, I don't typically start nudging my landlord to check the radiator until well into November -- when the heat does come on, it's typically too warm in here, and I feel absurd cracking windows when it's freezing out!

11-17-2011, 04:55 AM	#20
pentup Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Flushing NY Photos: Albums Posts: 413	Originally posted by Philoslothical It's much healthier for the battery to top it off when it's still at 90% than it is to let it get to 10%. Wow. I didn't know that. In fact, I had assumed something close to the opposite was true -- what happened to the "memory effect" with rechargeable batteries that people used to talk about? I had always thought it was best practice to periodically drain a battery completely, because if you started recharging too soon, the battery would "remember" the amount of new charge it was obtaining as if that percentage represented the whole capacity of the battery, thus depleting the total storage capacity. Is that no longer true? Was it ever? Also, in regard to the battery charger that comes with the K-5, I saw a thread here recently claiming that over-charging the battery could contribute to the mirror flop issue... One thing that makes this tricky is of course that the battery indicator is pretty much useless; it'll seem to show a full charge, then suddenly you're nearly out of juice. EDIT: Ok, I see I was r(mis)emembering a purported phenomenon with ni-cad batteries, not all rechargeables: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_effect But note this passage from that article: Temporary effects*Voltage depression due to long-term over-charging* A common process often ascribed to memory effect is voltage depression. In this case the peak voltage of the battery drops more quickly than normal as it is used, even though the total energy remains almost the same. In modern electronic equipment that monitors the voltage to indicate battery charge, the battery appears to be draining very quickly. To the user it appears the battery is not holding its full charge, which seems similar to memory effect. This is a common problem with high-load devices such as digital cameras. Voltage depression is caused by repeated over-charging of a battery, which causes the formation of small crystals of electrolyte on the plates. These can clog the plates, increasing resistance and lowering the voltage of some individual cells in the battery. This causes the battery as a whole to seem to discharge rapidly as those individual cells discharge quickly and the voltage of the battery as a whole suddenly falls. This effect is very common, as consumer trickle chargers typically overcharge. Sounds to me like overcharging could cause more problems than undercharging... ? Last edited by pentup; 11-17-2011 at 05:01 AM.

11-19-2011, 04:02 PM	#28
pentup Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Flushing NY Photos: Albums Posts: 413	Wow: "New Li-Ion batteries should be stored in a location with ambient temperatures between 70º to 100ºF and at 40% state of charge or lower.... Batteries stored in cold environments will have to be stabilized within normal temperature ranges prior to recharging and use." 70º F? It's nowhere near that in my apartment during the winter. Only way I could warm them up prior to recharging would be to carry them around in my pocket for a while...

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11-16-2011, 10:25 PM	#16
Mychael Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 215 Original Poster	Charge light went out after about 4.5-5hrs of charge. I'll leave it on for another hour then try it in the camera. If everything works then it was just a flat battery and the next thing to see is if it re-occurs.

11-16-2011, 11:12 PM	#17
kev.pride Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Modbury North, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 351	Sometimes new batteries take a few cycles to get to peak performance. Until I got a new Sigma with OS & HSM I never seemed to run out of battery unless I was using macro with LiveView. Now I'm finding with constant use the battery will discharge pretty quick using HSM & OS - especially if I review a lot. Suppose thats what a fully charged spare is for.

11-17-2011, 01:19 AM	#18
Philoslothical Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,889	The other thing to consider is that you should never let a Li-ion battery completely discharge. They don't always fully recover from that. It's much healthier for the battery to top it off when it's still at 90% than it is to let it get to 10%. I make a point of charging every day if I'm shooting, every second or third if it's just sitting on the shelf, and it has performed predictably well for me so far.

11-17-2011, 02:06 AM	#19
Mychael Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 215 Original Poster	Agreed about being bad to flatten them. I'm just surprised it's happened so soon. My P&S can keep a battery with charge for months.

11-17-2011, 06:25 AM	#21
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,553	My original K10D battery is going strong after 4 years. I have to remind myself to charge it sometimes as when I'm just doing some occasional shooting, it may be weeks between charges. I've never really counted pictures per charge but I shot 1100+ on one day last winter outside in below freezing weather at a motorcycle ice racing event. I would say something isn't right with your battery if it only stays up for 3 hours. Mine has been so reliable I forget about it sometimes.

11-17-2011, 06:35 AM	#22
ukwoody Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Pembrokeshire, Wales,UK Posts: 152	Please take 5 mins and read this article all about Li-ion batteries, very informative. http://www.lxe.com/pdf/wp_Li-IonBatteries.pdf regards Woody

11-17-2011, 10:19 AM	#23
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Originally posted by pentup Also, in regard to the battery charger that comes with the K-5, I saw a thread here recently claiming that over-charging the battery could contribute to the mirror flop issue... Please don't repeat this. The full charge associated with some mirror flopping was just a SYMPTOM, not the CAUSE. All cameras with mirror flopping have been fixed by fixing the body, and no replacement of battery chargers was ever required.

11-17-2011, 11:55 PM	#24
pentup Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Flushing NY Photos: Albums Posts: 413	Originally posted by philbaum The full charge associated with some mirror flopping was just a SYMPTOM, not the CAUSE. Explain that please. How could a "full charge" be a symptom of anything but having been charged?

11-18-2011, 09:11 AM	#25
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Originally posted by pentup Explain that please. How could a "full charge" be a symptom of anything but having been charged? From a number of reports, the mirror flopping happened more often with a full charge in the battery, but the camera should have been able to function properly anyway. Its an association but not a cause. I never had mirror flopping, but i measured the voltage on my two batteries, one a pentax, the other a third party. And the voltage is remarkably consistent between both batteries and between my batteries and a few reports from those who had mirror flopping and checked their batteries. The chargers turn themselves off when they reach a certain voltage. Its apparently not good to leave the batteries on chargers for in indefinite period, but the voltage doesn't get any higher from my few checks. Pentax has become very good at fixing this problem with the bodies, once they discovered what the cause is. But they aren't saying exactly what the fix is. But the fix has nothing to do with the chargers or batteries.

11-19-2011, 11:59 AM	#26
ChrisA Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London Posts: 393	My first K-5 went back for various reasons, one of which was extremely short battery life (about 300 shots per charge, two different brand new batteries). Too early to say with the replacement, and additionally I'm now using an Eye-Fi card which uploads the pictures to my computer across my wireless network. That must use some power, so I'm guessing I should expect less than the number of shots the manual refers to. I'm writing down the number of shots per charge, so I should have some data in due course.

11-19-2011, 03:16 PM	#27
toooldtocare Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lake Saint Louis Posts: 126	Originally posted by ukwoody Please take 5 mins and read this article all about Li-ion batteries, very informative. http://www.lxe.com/pdf/wp_Li-IonBatteries.pdf regards Woody Thanks Woody for posting that. I had seen something like that before, but it is nice to refresh ourselves with the facts. Wayne

11-19-2011, 04:51 PM	#29
Philoslothical Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,889	Apartment implies you're renting? In NY the minimum standard is 68 degrees daytime, lower at night. Always good to know one's rights, eh?

11-19-2011, 05:49 PM	#30
pentup Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Flushing NY Photos: Albums Posts: 413	Originally posted by Philoslothical Apartment implies you're renting? In NY the minimum standard is 68 degrees daytime, lower at night. Always good to know one's rights, eh? I'm aware of my rights, I assure you. And (over) heating the apartment when I'm not even here would be silly just for the sake of a battery. But you didn't quote the rest: "Between the hours of 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM, if the temperature outside falls below 40 degrees, the inside temperature is required to be at least 55 degrees Fahrenheit." That's a ways off from 70. Anyway, 68 would be far too warm for me, and during most of the day when I'm not at home I would find it absurd to keep temperatures up that high. Anyway, I don't typically start nudging my landlord to check the radiator until well into November -- when the heat does come on, it's typically too warm in here, and I feel absurd cracking windows when it's freezing out!