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12-01-2011, 10:38 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
If you're in TAv mode you don't need to or want to fix ISO. That would equal full manual and there's a mode setting for that already. TAv mode is designed to use auto ISO or it would have no value to the user.
Which is why I wish they had simply let the user turn auto ISO on and off on demand for M mode, as we can for the other modes, instead of wasting a space on the dial for TAv. I thought TAv was terrific until I kept running into cases where I wished I could override the auto ISO setting; it's much more convenient for me to just use Av, with the front e-dial set to shutter speed, and turn auto ISO off and on as needed. That gives me the benefits of TAv without all the front and back e-dial twirling when lighting conditions are changing dramatically from shot to shot.

12-01-2011, 11:22 PM   #17
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Hi ANZAC. I'm a former Kiwi and enjoying this forum. I am finding it very helpful. I now beginning to understand how the K5 firmware works. I have always been a Nikon user and still really like my D7000 but this K5 came my way and so far it has been a fun camera to use. The Program lines then simply provide a bias for the combination of Shutter and Aperture. You still have to manage things like colour control. - landscape, portrait etc. Tell me more about this Green Button. You say that pushing it in P mode will tell you the optimum f stop for the lens on the camera? Have I got that right? What else does it do? Appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks wizofoz down in Oz.
12-02-2011, 06:25 AM   #18
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Slight clarification to what I typed earlier.
MTF mode will give you the optimal aperture for 'compatible' lenses. Obviously if the lens has no electrical contacts, such as an early Takumar, there is no way the camera can know which lens is mounted.

Yes, Program line lets the user decide what the camera will do in "P"Mode whan the green button is pushed. It biases the settings, for say, shallow DOF, or perhaps for sports shooting. Basically it turns the P mode into AV mode, or TV mode by default, and allows a reset of the settings back to what was chosen, should one begin to experient with various settings.

The green button is a very useful feature of Pentax camera's. It 're-zero's' settings, gives a meter reading, or provides P mode information, or performs stop down metering on older M and A lenses, depending on the mode the camera is currently in.

For example, try biasing your exposure by a few stops, then hit the green button. Hey presto! its back to whatever the camera thinks is the correct exposure. Back to the middle of the exposure field. Very useful in many situations. I use it all the time to re-zero whatever setting I'm playing with.
12-02-2011, 09:27 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentup Quote
I wished I could override the auto ISO setting; it's much more convenient for me to just use Av, with the front e-dial set to shutter speed, and turn auto ISO off and on as needed.
Why not? you can do that too now. in Av mode, shutter speed is the first variable to change (whatever the iso setting at that moment), hit the green button+iso button, it becomes Av mode with auto-iso until you turn either one of the dials, the auto-iso will switch back and it becomes normal Av mode again.

QuoteOriginally posted by pentup Quote
That gives me the benefits of TAv without all the front and back e-dial twirling when lighting conditions are changing dramatically from shot to shot.
That is the wrong application, by design TAv mode is used when you don't want the shutter-speed (moving object) AND the aperture to change (more DOF) whatever the lighting condition is.. the camera takes care of changing iso to get the proper exposure.

QuoteOriginally posted by pentup Quote
Which is why I wish they had simply let the user turn auto ISO on and off on demand for M mode, as we can for the other modes, instead of wasting a space on the dial for TAv.
You mean like this - less cramped and more spacious on the mode dial is more attractive? (courtesy from my friend's camera)

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12-02-2011, 05:22 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
Why not? you can do that too now. in Av mode, shutter speed is the first variable to change (whatever the iso setting at that moment), hit the green button+iso button, it becomes Av mode with auto-iso until you turn either one of the dials, the auto-iso will switch back and it becomes normal Av mode again.
Yes. I know. That's exactly what I was describing and what I use -- AV mode, with the ISO floating to the limit before the shutter speed changes, until I turn auto ISO off. Read my post again, if it matters. I was arguing that instead of creating a new pseudo-mode called TAv, Pentax could have simply made M mode consistent with the other modes, by letting us turn auto-ISO on and off for it, as I do with Av, and as I (and then you, redundantly) described it.

It's no big deal; I just find it silly for Pentax to have created a "mode" when all they had to do was make auto-ISO available on demand for all existing modes.

It's not about "attractiveness" -- it's about avoiding unnecessary accumulations of features and inconsistency.

Would you applaud Pentax if they had decided to do the same with Av and Tv that they did (or rather, didn't do) with M? That is, have those modes only be "traditional", and instead of letting us use auto-ISO with them, if they had created two more "modes" on the dial, forcing us, if we wanted to switch auto-ISO on and off, to turn the mode dial instead of the more convenient (for me, anyway) combination of ISO button and green button?
It seems to me the creation of TAv was more a marketing consideration than a usability one. I doubt I'm the only person who would be making more use of M mode if it were as flexible as I've described, that is, if the TAv behavior were incorporated in M, entirely on demand.
12-02-2011, 06:48 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentup Quote
Yes. I know. That's exactly what I was describing and what I use -- AV mode, with the ISO floating to the limit before the shutter speed changes, until I turn auto ISO off. Read my post again, if it matters. I was arguing that instead of creating a new pseudo-mode called TAv, Pentax could have simply made M mode consistent with the other modes, by letting us turn auto-ISO on and off for it, as I do with Av, and as I (and then you, redundantly) described it.

It's no big deal; I just find it silly for Pentax to have created a "mode" when all they had to do was make auto-ISO available on demand for all existing modes.

It's not about "attractiveness" -- it's about avoiding unnecessary accumulations of features and inconsistency.

Would you applaud Pentax if they had decided to do the same with Av and Tv that they did (or rather, didn't do) with M? That is, have those modes only be "traditional", and instead of letting us use auto-ISO with them, if they had created two more "modes" on the dial, forcing us, if we wanted to switch auto-ISO on and off, to turn the mode dial instead of the more convenient (for me, anyway) combination of ISO button and green button?
It seems to me the creation of TAv was more a marketing consideration than a usability one. I doubt I'm the only person who would be making more use of M mode if it were as flexible as I've described, that is, if the TAv behavior were incorporated in M, entirely on demand.
If I understand correctly, TAv mode sticks.. whereas pseudo Av mode with auto-iso is only momentarily acting like TAv mode... and you wouldn't want it switch on/off like that by accidentally turn either e-dials. TAv mode is something special IMHO. M mode is completely manual and should stay that way.. Even Av, Tv or Sv mode, two of the variables are fixed, only the third variable changes. TAv is no different, you fix Aperture and shutter, let the camera decide the correct iso. You can argue that Sv is not useful which I agree since I don't use that at all.

Last edited by aleonx3; 12-02-2011 at 07:19 PM.
12-02-2011, 07:40 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
M mode is completely manual and should stay that way..
It could stay that way as long as you wanted. The point is the user would have a choice -- a choice that TAv mode provides, but less conveniently than what I'm proposing.
QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
If I understand correctly, TAv mode sticks..
Indeed it does. And that's the problem with it -- you can't unstick when you need to, without going to the menu to broaden the range you've set for auto-ISO, or switching out of the mode all together. TAv mode is terrific -- until I'm in a situation where the lighting is changing drastically and frequently -- for example, if I'm pivoting from bright sunlight to deep shadow. In that situation, I have to decide I like madly twirling the front and rear e-dials to compensate for an ISO that's bumped up against either limit, or I have to switch out of the mode altogether, or go to the menu to change the auto ISO range.
QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
TAv mode is something special
I agree. They decided to make a special "mode" out of a behavior that was built-in to the other modes. But why did we need it? As I said, we didn't need separate modes to keep Av and Tv modes "pure" (that is, with the traditional trade-offs between speed and aperture, as opposed to letting the third factor, ISO, change automatically instead) so why did we need it with M?

QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
Even Av, Tv or Sv mode, two of the variables are fixed, only the third variable changes.
I'm not sure what you mean by fixed -- you mean they're decided by the camera? Anyway, the way I have it set up, I determine aperture and shutter speed, and the camera sets the ISO -- exactly as TAv does it, but without being hobbled by the auto-ISO limit. Any time I want to specify an ISO, whether or not it's in the preset range, I just change it. I have the advantages of TAv without the annoyances. I don't see a downside.
12-02-2011, 09:09 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentup Quote
It could stay that way as long as you wanted. The point is the user would have a choice -- a choice that TAv mode provides, but less conveniently than what I'm proposing.

Indeed it does. And that's the problem with it -- you can't unstick when you need to, without going to the menu to broaden the range you've set for auto-ISO, or switching out of the mode all together. TAv mode is terrific -- until I'm in a situation where the lighting is changing drastically and frequently -- for example, if I'm pivoting from bright sunlight to deep shadow. In that situation, I have to decide I like madly twirling the front and rear e-dials to compensate for an ISO that's bumped up against either limit, or I have to switch out of the mode altogether, or go to the menu to change the auto ISO range.

I agree. They decided to make a special "mode" out of a behavior that was built-in to the other modes. But why did we need it? As I said, we didn't need separate modes to keep Av and Tv modes "pure" (that is, with the traditional trade-offs between speed and aperture, as opposed to letting the third factor, ISO, change automatically instead) so why did we need it with M?


I'm not sure what you mean by fixed -- you mean they're decided by the camera? Anyway, the way I have it set up, I determine aperture and shutter speed, and the camera sets the ISO -- exactly as TAv does it, but without being hobbled by the auto-ISO limit. Any time I want to specify an ISO, whether or not it's in the preset range, I just change it. I have the advantages of TAv without the annoyances. I don't see a downside.
Pentup... sorry, I probably just don't understand your point, period.

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