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12-15-2011, 07:21 PM   #1
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Strange occurance with my K5...

Ok, the first time this happened, I thought as it was a new camera with different functions, I must have been the cause. Now I'm not so sure.
I have just taked a couple of pictures with my K5. I reviewed them, then popped the card to take a better look at them on the computer, and somehow they are gone. (I'm 90% sure that the power was turned off on the camera when I popped the card as this is a practice that was consistant with the old camera as well.)
What does seem to be common to the last time it happened is that the recent pictures were in a secondary folder. The secondary folder shows as still being on the card, but it is empty?! (This has happened with two different cards.)
Suggestions are appreciated!
thx

OK, the good/bad news is that it is doing it constantly now. I take a few pictures...review them to make sure they are there...everything is fine. As soon as I power down the camera, the new pictures are gone (while the pictures from yesterday remain)?...


Last edited by beaumont; 12-15-2011 at 08:04 PM. Reason: Additional info...
12-15-2011, 08:43 PM   #2
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The file system on your memory card may be currupted. You can try a recovery software to see if you still have the images on the card and recover them. The one I used some time ago when I had the same issue is "Photo Recovery" by "MjM data recovery".

Once you recover your images and backup the rest of the card, then use your camera to reformat it. That fixed my problem.
12-15-2011, 09:26 PM   #3
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It is important that the card(s) you are using are formatted in the camera. Cards formatted in other cameras, or formatted via the computer, may have problems.
12-15-2011, 10:27 PM   #4
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Thanks for the feedback. The card was formatted in the camera two days ago. Are there some SD cards that are not compatible? I tried searching to see if this problem had been mentioned before, but no luck...

12-15-2011, 11:19 PM   #5
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What brand and size and type of card is it? That info is prerequisite to offering anything more than wild guesses.

Is it an SDXC card? Do you have the latest firmware on your camera?
12-16-2011, 02:22 AM   #6
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I had similar symptoms with a Canon p&s. I reviewed the pictures in camera, but when I got back to the PC (Windows) the pictures were gone. My Linux PC couldn't mount the card at all because the file system was corrupt. After some attempts I managed to run a recovery of the readable parts of the card, but found only the pictures from the batch taken before the last in-camera reformatting.

That card has been discarded now.
12-16-2011, 04:23 AM   #7
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QuoteQuote:
It is important that the card(s) you are using are formatted in the camera. Cards formatted in other cameras, or formatted via the computer, may have problems.
This is honestly one of the biggest loads of horse hockey ever spread across the Internet. You'll even hear seasoned professionally state this is required, but it is all anecdotal FUD (Fear ,Uncertainty and Doubt). There is no concrete evidence to back up such claims. I've formatted cards across nikon, canon, DSLRs and point & shoots for years and never had a problem with regards to compatibility.

Memory cards and current cameras use a well founded standard that is not affected by brand or model of camera.
Think about it... if the standards were not followed, would your computer be able to read the card when you go to transfer your photos? No, of course not.
No one is going to stray from the standards that everyone relies upon.

Format it on your computer, or by another camera...
The ONLY issue I've seen has been with using a card with more memory than the camera could handle (such as an 4G card with a ten year old camera that only handles 1G)... in which case it may re-partition the card to the smaller size.
This is mildly difficult to fix, and formatting in-camera can not fix. Regardless, the resulting state is still not incompatible with newer cameras nor is it permanent -- just need special care to regain the partitioned areas.

One note, some brands create extra folders or leave minor cruft behind. It is not a bad idea to reformat to clean up the extra stuff and give yourself an extra photo or two... but it won't reduce corruptions issues.


Anyway, it is far more likely the card was corrupted either by freak static charge, was defective, perhaps you bought one those "ebay specials" for $.01 a ton, or perhaps it was a counterfeit branded card.

As suggested, you can try some recovery software. If you're lucky, only the file system itself got a bad tick and lost where the files were located. The images themselves may be intact.

... and stay with name branded memory cards from Reliable Sources.
BTW, "Transcend" is relatively inexpensive but has a good reputation. Been using 8G & 16G versions of their cards for a couple of years without error.

Last edited by amoringello; 12-16-2011 at 04:28 AM.
12-16-2011, 07:16 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
This is honestly one of the biggest loads of horse hockey ever spread across the Internet. You'll even hear seasoned professionally state this is required, but it is all anecdotal FUD (Fear ,Uncertainty and Doubt). There is no concrete evidence to back up such claims. I've formatted cards across nikon, canon, DSLRs and point & shoots for years and never had a problem with regards to compatibility.

Memory cards and current cameras use a well founded standard that is not affected by brand or model of camera.
Think about it... if the standards were not followed, would your computer be able to read the card when you go to transfer your photos? No, of course not.
No one is going to stray from the standards that everyone relies upon.

Format it on your computer, or by another camera...
The ONLY issue I've seen has been with using a card with more memory than the camera could handle (such as an 4G card with a ten year old camera that only handles 1G)... in which case it may re-partition the card to the smaller size.
This is mildly difficult to fix, and formatting in-camera can not fix. Regardless, the resulting state is still not incompatible with newer cameras nor is it permanent -- just need special care to regain the partitioned areas.
I agree. This might have been an issue in the early days when not all cameras accepted all makes of memory cards, but not anymore.

QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
One note, some brands create extra folders or leave minor cruft behind. It is not a bad idea to reformat to clean up the extra stuff and give yourself an extra photo or two... but it won't reduce corruptions issues.
I don't know enough about what happens at low level when flash memory is formatted - if there's done any checks for bad cells or any such thing. If not, again, I agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
Anyway, it is far more likely the card was corrupted either by freak static charge, was defective, perhaps you bought one those "ebay specials" for $.01 a ton, or perhaps it was a counterfeit branded card.

As suggested, you can try some recovery software. If you're lucky, only the file system itself got a bad tick and lost where the files were located. The images themselves may be intact.

... and stay with name branded memory cards from Reliable Sources.
BTW, "Transcend" is relatively inexpensive but has a good reputation. Been using 8G & 16G versions of their cards for a couple of years without error.
Couldn't agree more! The one bad card I mentioned above is the only one I had of that make (don't remember what - something obscure) - most probably from a "ebay specials"...

I too have good experience with Transcend.

12-16-2011, 07:55 AM   #9
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Thanks for the feedback all.
It has happened on two seperate cards. Both had been reformatted in the K5 before use. Both are PNY 16GB C10 (or whatever you call the speed).
As the camera is only a couple of weeks old, My question is, should I see if I can get it replaced (if the feeling is that this could be a camera issue that I must deal with for years to come.) Or is the general feeling that it is definately a card issue.
As mentioned, thanks for the feedback...

PS Day three, a third folder has been created for todays shots. Shots in todays folder seem to be ok. They survive a power down of the camera and the moving of the card to the computer. As a result, it seems the constant is the 2nd folder. What's odd is that it is the second forlder on both cards. Perhaps I'll try a third card and see if it reoccurs. (I will reformat 3 cards...take some pictures today...then when I take pictures tomorrow the 2nd folder should appear. We'll see what happens.)

Last edited by beaumont; 12-16-2011 at 08:43 AM.
12-16-2011, 06:14 PM   #10
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PNY is also a decent brand. If not the camera, where di you get the cards. Hopefully from a reputable shop and not an ebay site.
Not sure what effect the second folder would have but it is interesting. I rarely take enough photos on a card to force that to happen... shooting RAW doesn't often allow enough files to make the second folder necessary. So I can't really say how reliable it is.
I know I have a few times and never had an issue, but it has not happened often.

The K5 allows you to forcibly create a new folder.
Can you see if that reproduces the problem?

My guess is that it is the number of photos that causes the second folder to be created, not actually the act of creating the second folder.
i.e. your card(s) have some error when more full.


Another test would be to pack your card full of data (just copy large files from your desktop to the card).
See if storing a few photos causes problems when it is fairly full.

One would think a disk surface testing software might do the trick to discover bad "sectors", but NVRAM drives don't necessarily work that way. You may not be able to consecutively write to each cell on the chip. Once a block is freed, it may be considered open for writing regardless of what block/sector the OS thinks it might be writing to.
You really need to store the full 8G or 16G, etc... to the card's capacity to test how well it is working.
Although the more I think about it, cheap SD cards (cheap compared to SSD drives) are probably not that sophisticated.

Anyway it is interesting.
12-16-2011, 06:45 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
This is honestly one of the biggest loads of horse hockey ever spread across the Internet.
Then why do the camera manuals mention it as an issue (eg in 'Error Messages', p-351 of the K-5 manual).

It has also been my direct experience. It is not about whether the formatting process across cameras supports FAT, FAT32 or exFAT consistently, or even about the variations in SDHC and SDXC implementations across cameras and cards (which do exist), let alone the variations in SDHC disk quality.

Some cameras upon formatting the card - eg Sony - write a whole custom folder hierarchy onto the SD card by default, and expect to find their images or videos in those custom locations. Ditto Pentax, although to a lesser degree.

So if you swap cards across cameras, sometimes you won't find the images you may be looking for, or the camera may have trouble recording them because the location where it wants to dump them hasn't been setup right.

There is also the issue the manual alludes to that is also common across many brands - the in-camera playback function will often refuse to play back images recorded by another device. Try reviewing your NEX-5 JPG's in camera on a SD card shoved into a K-5...

These sort of problems do crop up.
12-17-2011, 06:10 AM   #12
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What you are describing has nothing to do with formatting of the card but the capabilities of the camera to understand all possible formats of EXIF and JPEG.
Probably less of a problem now, but the camera manufacturer has no obligation to understand EXIF data created by another vendor.
Nor is it required to make unusual sized jpegs with different aspect ratios fit into its screen.
Nor is it required to access folders that other vendors create.

This is not a card file system formatting issue but an issue with the data configuration, or schema, of the files themselves.
Most (not all) cameras will ignore unknown files and folders. Most will also create the necessary folder hierarchy when a new card is inserted.
Watch as you insert blank card int your K5. It is quite active even if the power is turned off.

It can take some time to parse all the layers of EXIF.
To make more efficient use of the weak processors in some of these devices, many will cheat and look directly to pre-defined byte locations X,Y for the Width, Height of the image, for example. If that contains the date and time from another vendor, then things will not work correctly.





If you're referring to the error message:
"The SD Memory Card you have inserted is unformatted or has been formatted on another device and is not compatible with this camera. Use the card after formatting it with this camera. (p.281)"

It says "device", not camera. I believe one can format an SD card with Linux or Mac OS... There are also other devices that use SD cards and that actually use their own custom format.
Its a cover-all, such as a with your backyard BBQ grill, you'll probably see a statement to ignite only approved materials... well it can handle a lot, they are just covering their arse from people who want to cook with liquid Oxygen and end up burning down their neighborhood!


Many people are *Fearful* of electronics, they do not *Understand* what is going on, and they *Doubt* their ability to handle a problem --- F.U.D.

This bull hockey is spread from one FUD-lover to another and the myth perpetuates.

I have yet to hear someone spread this myth with a statement of personal experience. It is always "I heard it from a guy...", or "I know a guy who once...", or "It happened to me once... I'm not sure if formatting was the cause but..."



We are the masters of our electronics!
Don't be a slave to your devices!
Have some balls and give it a try. :-) :-) :-)

Last edited by amoringello; 12-17-2011 at 06:33 AM.
12-17-2011, 07:07 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
We are the masters of our electronics!
I have always had good relationships with electronic devices like cameras, PC's, servers, HDD's, routers, firewalls, etc etc, and all forms of software. They love me

Mechanical devices - eg car engines or air conditioning systems - the relationships haven't been so good.

As a ex IT guy I also value data integrity and system stability. So I take a conservative line when using camera gear like batteries, cards, other peripherals etc. And I've nary had any problems with any camera I've ever owned.
12-17-2011, 08:21 AM   #14
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I am in no way fearful of electronics....in my lifetime, I have defeated and destroyed more electronic devices than you can count! A few have given me their best jolt......but in the end, I melted them!
Regards!
12-17-2011, 08:30 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I am in no way fearful of electronics....in my lifetime, I have defeated and destroyed more electronic devices than you can count! A few have given me their best jolt......but in the end, I melted them!
Regards!
Thats the way to show 'em who's boss!
High-voltage or high octane flames, one way or another you gotta show them who's going down last!
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