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02-29-2012, 01:21 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stone G. Quote
I wouldn't call a functionality a firmware flaw, when it was designed on purpose to be the way it is.
Of course we can presume that the 2 s delay between exposures is intentional and certainly the chance for this is higher than for a flaw. That's why my opinion is only a guess. But if we're honest we also have not found any reason for this behaviour yet which actually rises the chance (not the necessity) for a flaw.

Regarding astrophotography: Well, I've not done this - yet. Nevertheless I take long exposures with at least "intermediate" 200 mm and thus know for causes of sensor shake and their influence at least at that beforementioned focal length. My experience is: a heavy wooden tripod, a geared head, mirror lockup and the self-timer are sufficient to at least 1000 mm (FF equiv.). And, as I stated before: You cannot avoid the micro vibrations of the accelerating shutter. The vibrations of a decelerating shutter before are much less in amplitude (and with opposite direction). Even if you think about avoiding resonance (e.g. if the shutter runs forth & back and does not need to be charged) a short break of some milli seconds would be quite enough. And finally the main argument has not been answered to: if the 2 s delay between the shots is intentional, why does it not happen when using the 12 s self-timer°? Actually, when using longer lenses at least the people without a wireless remote would probably choose that 12 s instead of the 2.

02-29-2012, 02:48 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
if the 2 s delay between the shots is intentional, why does it not happen when using the 12 s self-timer°?
That's an easy one, the 12s delay is only a 12s delay, usually so that the photographer can appear on the photo himself. It is not a mirror up delay which the 2s delay is. Different usage.
02-29-2012, 03:07 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
---- Actually, when using longer lenses at least the people without a wireless remote would probably choose that 12 s instead of the 2.
gimball has answered adequately on the entirely different purposes with 12s and 2s delays, but just for the general understanding:

A lunar/planetary astrophotographer using very long FL (we are talking several meters using Barlow lenses, eyepice projection and more) would never touch camera and telescope. On the other hand we do take many, many exposures for stacking. So, since 2s is enough i would definitely not want 12s!
02-29-2012, 03:13 PM   #19
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I played a little with the camera and realized that we do have plenty of options. If I use 2s delay, one push bracketing and live view, I will get 2s between shots and the mirror stays up all the time. No cycling of the mirror between exposures.

But more interestingly, if I use no delay, bracketing and live view, I will get mirror up (due to live view) and all bracketing shots fired in a row with mirror up. As I understand it, exactly what the OP wanted.

02-29-2012, 03:36 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
That's an easy one, the 12s delay is only a 12s delay, usually so that the photographer can appear on the photo himself. It is not a mirror up delay which the 2s delay is. Different usage.
I expected this answer and the manual states the same regarding the 2 / 12 s timer. BUT: We're not talking about the timer only, but about timer *with bracketing* here. And considering this the manual states:
"mirror pops up immediately after the shutter release button is pressed" and "this mode to avoid camera shake when the shutter release button is pressed". If I configure the camera to take all bracketed images with ONE shutter press there should - by definition from the manual - be only *one* 2 s countdown.

QuoteOriginally posted by Stone G. Quote
A lunar/planetary astrophotographer using very long FL (we are talking several meters using Barlow lenses, eyepice projection and more) would never touch camera and telescope. On the other hand we do take many, many exposures for stacking. So, since 2s is enough i would definitely not want 12s!
This type of astro photographer most probably will also not need bracketing, as he stacks images with the same exposures. So if we were talking about 2 s delay in between multiple (non-bracketed) exposures I'd probably agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
But more interestingly, if I use no delay, bracketing and live view, I will get mirror up (due to live view) and all bracketing shots fired in a row with mirror up. As I understand it, exactly what the OP wanted.
Yeah, that's true and might be a solution for the thread opener as well as the suggestion with the remote. But I think there are also many photographers who take bracketed exposures *and* need the 2 s delay. Many people around me are taking night shots which require longer exposures and thus tripod usage. To avoid shake, they use the 2 s timer and to capture the high contrasts they use bracketing. They often have problems with light trails from cars etc. (at least if not intended) and a 2 s delay between the exposures worsens the problem. The same applies for night time landscape photography including stars.

To my understanding we have not found a single reason why there should be a 2 s delay between bracketed exposures yet but found various situations where this behaviour resembles a problem or at least requires additional equipment (remote).

Last edited by rerun; 02-29-2012 at 03:42 PM.
03-01-2012, 12:16 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
To my understanding we have not found a single reason why there should be a 2 s delay between bracketed exposures
The 2s mirror lock up is about minimizing vibrations, even when bracketing. Try macro without it, it will not be sharp. If speed has higher priority then use a remote or 12s delay. If I call for 2s mirror lockup and get 2s mirror lockup then that is not a firmware fault. There are quite a few firmware faults, but this is not one of them.

If I, for some reason, want to minimize vibrations and thus use the 2s delay and only get the delay on the first of five shots, I would call that a bug. I'm pretty sure the first shot would be sharper then the following ones in sensitive situations.

Last edited by Gimbal; 03-01-2012 at 12:24 AM.
03-01-2012, 12:41 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
The 2s mirror lock up is about minimizing vibrations, even when bracketing. Try macro without it, it will not be sharp.
We're cycling rounds here. I've never contradicted that mirror lockup reduces sensor shake. But please note that
1st: the manual talks about reducing shake from shutter button which will not happen between bracketed shots,
2nd: at least in live view mode the mirror does not come down between shots and so does not create mirror shake and
3rd: even without LV mode the mirror does not have to come down between shots as the K-5 does not charge the shutter with the mirror.
Regarding macros: I've already taken some (up to 7:1; though not with the K-5) and never needed a 2 s delay *between* the bracketed shots.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
If speed has higher priority then use a remote or 12s delay. If I call for 2s mirror lockup and get 2s mirror lockup then that is not a firmware fault.
Even beside we might dispute about whether I called for mirror lockup (which is available in an extra option) or a simple 2 s delay it is a firmware fault anyway: because between the shots no mirror movement occurs. Already the K-7 did not need the mirror come down to charge the shutter.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
If I, for some reason, want to minimize vibrations and thus use the 2s delay and only get the delay on the first of five shots, I would call that a bug. I'm pretty sure the first shot would be sharper then the following ones in sensitive situations.
So *some* other camera manufacturers are making buggy firmware?
I can assure you that at least I never got a sharpness difference between bracketed shots even though the 2 s delay took place only once.

But probably I should make clear why this 2s delay between the shots resembles a problem to me: I'm mostly shooting at night which regularly requires bracketed exposures. Even under full moon and with fast lenses I sometimes need short shutter times if I either want to catch clouds sharp or avoid hard edges between panorama frames (clouds, shadows with low moon). In the past with other camera makes this was not a problem. Now with the K-5 of course I will use a remote to achieve the usual self-timer behaviour. But this makes unneccessary extra work as I have a programmed remote which is set to 2 min. (for shots where time is not an issue). To use this remote for a simple "one shutter press" I have to always switch the operating mode on the remote and reprogram the time again. Using two remotes (which I actually own) is not an option as I'd have to switch them on camera.
You might regard this type of photography a special use but there are some people around me photographing similar things / in a similar style and especially for this type of photography bracketing and a 2 s delay are of most use.

Last edited by rerun; 03-01-2012 at 12:57 AM.
03-01-2012, 01:19 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
So *some* other camera manufacturers are making buggy firmware?
They do if only some photos get mirror lockup when I select mirror lockup. Anyhow, delay or not, a remote is always a good idea when using a tripod. Get yourself, or build, a wired remote, simple and effective.

03-01-2012, 01:30 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
They do if only some photos get mirror lockup when I select mirror lockup.
I hope at least we agree that mirror lockup is intended to reduce shake induced by mirror. So, please - as you've left my points unanswered - why should there be a delay *between* bracketed shots initiated with only 1 shutter press when no mirror movement occurs between the shots?
Additionally, for mirror lockup the K-5 has an extra option, so I guess the manual is a bit unclear about the 2 s timer. Time *timer* is not intended for mirror lockup (the extra option is) but it has mirror lockup *additionally* as it makes sense to use the delay *also* for reducing mirror shake. I bet the 12 s timer will also include mirror lockup (don't have the K-5 right here now).
So, concluded: not various other camera makers are implementing the 2 s timer wrong - but Pentax does.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Anyhow, delay or not, a remote is always a good idea when using a tripod. Get yourself, or build, a wired remote, simple and effective.
I'm asking whether you've read my post thoroughly.
I own 2 wireless remotes already and already explained why this doesn't help either.
03-01-2012, 01:50 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
I hope at least we agree that mirror lockup is intended to reduce shake induced by mirror. So, please - as you've left my points unanswered - why should there be a delay *between* bracketed shots initiated with only 1 shutter press when no mirror movement occurs between the shots?
Fire away in live view (no mirror movements) and you can easily feel the vibrations from the shutter. It's not only the mirror that creates vibrations.


QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
Additionally, for mirror lockup the K-5 has an extra option, so I guess the manual is a bit unclear about the 2 s timer. Time *timer* is not intended for mirror lockup (the extra option is) but it has mirror lockup *additionally* as it makes sense to use the delay *also* for reducing mirror shake. I bet the 12 s timer will also include mirror lockup (don't have the K-5 right here now).
So, concluded: not various other camera makers are implementing the 2 s timer wrong - but Pentax does.
The 12s is only a timed delay, it does not include mirror lock up.
What other camera makers are we talking about?

QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
I'm asking whether you've read my post thoroughly.
I own 2 wireless remotes already and already explained why this doesn't help either.
As I understood it your remote was to complicated to mess with, thus use a simple wired remote for those times when you only want a shutter button on a wire.
03-01-2012, 02:33 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Fire away in live view (no mirror movements) and you can easily feel the vibrations from the shutter. It's not only the mirror that creates vibrations.
Googling around I've found shutter blur with the K-7 for exposures of fractions of a second:
Falk Lumo: LumoLabs: Shutter-induced blur with an SLR camera
But the K-5 does not suffer from this any more: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/127267-k-5-shutter-blur.html
Additionally, how would a delay help against vibrations from a starting shutter? How would - *if* it existed with the K-5 - it be relevant with exposures of, say, 8 s +/- 2 EV?

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
What other camera makers are we talking about?
Canon, Sigma, Fuji (all owned) and if I remember right, also Nikon (friends).

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
As I understood it your remote was to complicated to mess with,
No, the remote is not the problem. As said, I actually own 2, so I could program one with a 2 min. exposure and use the other for simple shutter press. But I had to always switch them which I don't like. (I prefer to keep one remote connected to reduce wear on the pins).
03-01-2012, 02:52 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by rerun Quote
Additionally, how would a delay help against vibrations from a starting shutter? How would - *if* it existed with the K-5 - it be relevant with exposures of, say, 8 s +/- 2 EV?
It wouldn't help with the start, but it would wait out the vibrations from the closing shutter of the previous shot.
As for the 8s +- 2, I guess the reason for bracketing is a large dynamic range, thus sharp lights are involved and these make a print from the very first fraction of a second. Thus mirror lock up is effective even on longer exposures. I have seen this myself during astro photo. A 30s exposure for star trails will give you a little "hook" in the beginning of the trail if not using mirror lock up. Focal length will of course play a role here as well.

I did a quick search on Nikon and Canon mirror lock up and there seems to be a lot of confusion and model dependent behavior and suggestions of live view. So I don't know really how they work. Anyhow, the way Pentax does it seems both logical and right to me.

Use a wireless remote then, or build an adapter for two wired remotes at once. Actually your problem is very specific to the way you shoot and restrict yourself with the remotes. It's not Pentax fault.
03-01-2012, 03:04 AM   #28
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I don't regard this problem as specific to me, as friends of mine photograph in a similar way. I also don't think that Canon, Nikon etc. (and thus the majority of the DSLR market) are wrong about their understanding of a 2 s timer. Remember: for mirror lockup, you have an extra option and I'd guess that the hooks in star trails you wrote about are caused by the mirror, not the shutter - see the links I posted above.
Nevertheless we've exchanged our points, more would simply be disputing. So I'll live with this limitation in usage and hope Pentax will be more on my side with evaluating this issue.
03-02-2012, 02:45 AM   #29
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Just use Live View and a wired remote shutter release, the mirror is locked up all the time and the wired release enables you to trigger the shutter without disturbing the camera.

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03-02-2012, 04:05 AM   #30
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In all the nuance of this tempest I believe the distinction between WIRED remote performance, not wireLESS remote (no matter how many one has) was missed.
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