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05-29-2012, 11:51 AM   #16
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The first time I saw what I could do with a raw negative in Camera Raw I set my camera on RAW and never looked back. Bad photography is bad photography but still there are times when shooting RAW and developing in CR and PS has just saved my arse. No one takes 100% perfect pics all the time and for me the difference between what I can do with a RAW file and a jpeg in post makes it worth it. Besides there's really no need to compress now. We don't need to shoot jpeg. Higher memory cards are selling for the cost of seeing a movie. I used 4 512MB cards for years with my Fuji and I made do, because I had to. I couldn't afford cards with more memory. Now? I have like 40GB worth of memory cards. I didn't break my wallet going there, and I'm loving being able to shoot RAW as much as I want. I still use jpeg for quick web shots, to show someone something I'm selling maybe on CL, but that's it. Otherwise? I want that range to play with...

05-29-2012, 12:03 PM   #17
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So for just basic, intuitive RAW processing Lightroom seems to bee the generally preferred choice. I want to use something to quickly process RAW as a matter of course - I can do JPGs pretty well, but I suspect I'll get generally better results if I just directly go to the RAW files. I have a program, but I don't much like it, from a workflow standpoint. Of course I haven't built any of my own presets etc...

Does anyone have another choice I should evaluate before pulling that trigger and spending the time learning Lightroom?
05-29-2012, 03:38 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by TER-OR Quote
So for just basic, intuitive RAW processing Lightroom seems to bee the generally preferred choice. I want to use something to quickly process RAW as a matter of course - I can do JPGs pretty well, but I suspect I'll get generally better results if I just directly go to the RAW files. I have a program, but I don't much like it, from a workflow standpoint. Of course I haven't built any of my own presets etc...

Does anyone have another choice I should evaluate before pulling that trigger and spending the time learning Lightroom?
Light room IMO is worth every penny, you can use Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) it is just as good at workflow but a bit more cumbersome, in lightroom you can develope, post, and organize you images all in one place. I really like how I can just drag my images right into Flikr and it loads right up without any issues.
05-29-2012, 04:03 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by BirdDude007 Quote
Light room IMO is worth every penny, you can use Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) it is just as good at workflow but a bit more cumbersome, in lightroom you can develope, post, and organize you images all in one place. I really like how I can just drag my images right into Flikr and it loads right up without any issues.
Is light room same as RAW utility in Photoshop ?

05-29-2012, 04:20 PM   #20
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lightroom uses the same converter but it is nothing like adobe camera raw.
with lightroom you can have a database of your photos, more settings, brushes and presets. (and plugins)
tools to compare your photos etc. you can download a demo and find out for yourself.
05-29-2012, 08:18 PM   #21
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What's the concensus to the following questions?

1)Which is better?:

Raw, Raw+ or Raw+JPEG

2)What's the BEST PP program?
05-29-2012, 08:36 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by tabl10s Quote
Raw+ or Raw+JPEG
They are the same.

Shoot RAW all the time, you won't be sorry. Raw + JPG is lazy mans RAW, just wastes card and disk space for convenience.
05-29-2012, 08:54 PM   #23
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Got it. Don't use RAW+?

05-29-2012, 09:12 PM   #24
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RAW+ saves a RAW file and a JPG extracted from the RAW created using camera settings. PEF embeds a JPG image already in the RAW file using the incamera settings. The advantage of RAW+ is that if you look at the JPG and are happy with it, you can delete the RAW but if you dont, you just end up using up space.
05-29-2012, 09:49 PM   #25
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K(okay).
05-30-2012, 05:14 AM - 2 Likes   #26
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The advantage of RAW+ is that if you look at the JPG and are happy with it, you can delete the RAW

From PentaxForums.com: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5/187675-i-have-discovered-raw-s...#ixzz1wLq8FG5w

With all due respect, I would recommend against this. Every time you master another aspect of your PP program, every time a new features is added, you may want to change a file. I find every time I'm ready to reprint a picture because we sold a copy, we revisit the file and invariably we want to make changes. In one of the TV shows on Ansel Adams they show the progression of a single print, from the time he first printed it, until 25 years later. Same negative, but a different treatment in printing. Saying a picture is good enough is like saying you can keep the print and toss the negative. The trouble is 2 years later you may not agree with that assessment. And if the negative is gone, you've tossed the information you needed to do something different. Every time we need a new copy of an image, we re-evaluate the PP job we did last time we printed it, and re-evaluate. I have jpeg files used to make previous prints, but at least 50% of the time we revisit the RAW file and change part of the file.

An example would be what happened when Adobe brought out the shadow/highlights slider bars, all the sudden it was very easy to correct harsh shadows with not that much effort. Images with harsh shadows that would have taken hours of care dodging/ burning masking and feathering could be improved with a small movement on a slider bar. If you had a shot you didn't like because you didn't want to deal with the shadows or highlights, and you'd tossed it, you were out of luck.

The shadow detail in a jpg is probably not more than 100 shades of grey. IN a 14 bit raw, it's thousands. The jpeg reduces thousands of, shades of black/grey to hundreds. If you now, 3 years later you decide to bring up some of the shadow detail, on a jpeg it's going to look awful. There isn't enough gradation in the shadows to make it look natural. On a RAW file, you still have the 1000 shades of black/dark grey you originally had. You can pull up natural looking half stop, maybe a full stop out of the shadow and show detail that is not even in your jpeg file anymore. In a jpeg, there are only 16 shades of black, because that is all you need to make a nice image. But it's not enough to store the detail that a raw image has in that shadow.

Like a print, once you've done your jpeg, you can't make much change. You might be able to set your copy machine a little lighter or darker, but doing that won't increase detail. Making it lighter in a raw file will increase detail, and the actual jpeg file will be different. Once you've committed to jpeg, you've committed to 64k, colours and shades. A raw file has millions a 14 bit raw file has 10's of millions.

That's why I use software like Aperture (or possibly Lightroom if you're a PC guy, or like paying for Adobe product) because they are non-destructive. My raw file is stored untouched. Every time they ad something to the program or I learn something new about the program, I can improve my older images. If all you have is jpegs... not so much. And really, what is the cost of storing those images? You can get a few Terabyte drives for a hundred each. I've been going on 1 1.5 Terabyte drive as a back up unit for almost a year now. And I'm shooting thousands of images a month.

I still throw out too much. Every year, I want a couple of images , I don't have anymore because I said to myself "I'm never going to need that." What I've learned is, throw out what's out of focus, throw out 3 of your 5 bracketed images, keep the best two, the ones that have detail the others don't, throw out pictures where you didn't achieve your objective, but keep everything you like in RAW. Give your images time to grow on you. Some of my images I didn't print until months after I took them. They weren't exactly what I wanted, but they were great images. What I wanted clouded my perception of what they were. Once a year go through your drive and get rid of a pile of stuff if you want and throw out what you don't like. But don't do that when you first process your image. And certainly don't let the camera make that decision before you even look at the picture by shooting in jpeg.
05-30-2012, 05:25 AM   #27
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Really well explained Norm. I made the mistake of dumping some raw when i first started in digital and now regret it. there are pictures i'd really like to revisit, i have them as tiff but not raw. the last paragraph is pretty much the rule I follow now.
05-30-2012, 05:25 AM   #28
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When I was first using my camera, I shot JPG. I then kept making stupid settings mistakes - like changing the white balance to daylight fluorescent and then forgetting to switch back before an outdoor shoot. That gave all my pictures a nice purple/blue tinge. Pentax DCU was able to fix it in a batch mode, once I got past it not being happy about one of the photos so it wouldn't process the whole batch etc. etc. etc. That was a lot of time wasted for little gain - whereas learning to PP is a useful skill.
My bottom line now is I shoot RAW when I'm shooting for myself, I shoot JPG (and usually not highest quality) when I'm taking snapshots for somebody else (like a school event) and I want to give them the images ASAP. I only delete the useless photos (out of focus, bad crop etc) initially. I then make contact sheet pages of all the images and backup the images and contact sheets to a DVD for future use. I can then keep only the photos I want to work with now on the computer, but still have access to everything down the road if I so wish.

It is possible to shoot great images in JPG only but with one huge caveat. You have to actively think about all the in camera settings and be prepared to change them as the settings change. That also means knowing what the effect is from tweaking each setting.
05-30-2012, 05:57 AM   #29
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I would just invest some time in learning LR... developing RAWs which are just as good as the JPEGs coming from the camera is just a matter of seconds with the correct import settings.

There is no need shooting jpeg - only if you want to limit yourself.
05-30-2012, 11:33 AM   #30
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If you're serious about your art, you shoot RAW plain and simple. JPEGS are only for snap shots in my opinion.
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