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11-10-2012, 10:54 AM   #16
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Right, I dragged in the D800E not as any kind of equivalent, but as the other recent AA-less camera to make a splash and one that has been tested pretty thoroughly. The point that Falk and others have made about the number of pixels needed to make moire an insignificant risk seems to be demonstrated very effectively here. And of course even the D800E has indeed been shown to produce problematic moire in some cases. Personally, this cools my enthusiasm for the IIs quite a bit.

11-10-2012, 12:34 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by baro-nite Quote
Personally, this cools my enthusiasm for the IIs quite a bit.
make that 2 of us. The risk just seems too great for the small reward...

cheers

thanks

randy
11-10-2012, 03:59 PM   #18
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Great thread. Thanks John for your hard work.
Interesting.
11-10-2012, 04:00 PM   #19
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Too bad the K-5 and II/IIs samples were shot at different apertures, as it sort of screws up the comparison.


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11-10-2012, 04:56 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Too bad the K-5 and II/IIs samples were shot at different apertures, as it sort of screws up the comparison.
Ah, I hadn't checked that -- silly me for assuming they would have known better. The difference in diffraction softening between f/9 and f/8 might explain the difference between the K-5 and K-5 II shots.
11-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by baro-nite Quote
Ah, I hadn't checked that -- silly me for assuming they would have known better. The difference in diffraction softening between f/9 and f/8 might explain the difference between the K-5 and K-5 II shots.
Also, the face of the queen on the playing card is much sharper for that reason.

To give them some credit, though (and myself as well as my reviewers have experienced this as well)- it is extremely difficult to properly reproduce the same test if you attempt it at different times. In this case, the fact that each camera brand has to use a different lens makes things even worse.

I was looking at the D800E vs 645D shots and there's hardly a difference. I have both camera for review this month, and so far it looks like that's the conclusion that I'm going to have to make, which means that Pentax had better release a 645DII if they want studio photographers to consider paying the extra 5.5k!

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11-10-2012, 06:51 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Okay, to confirm my suspicions, here are two samples using Raw Therapee without any special processing.
Thanks, John, for posting comparisons that don't make cameras with AA-filters look like rubbish.

FWIW, I've posted another comparison between K-5 and K-5 IIs in which I gave the K-5 II the capture-sharpening it deserves for a fair comparison (only in the second comparison shown).
11-11-2012, 05:25 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by slip Quote
make that 2 of us. The risk just seems too great for the small reward...

cheers

thanks

randy
I'm in the same boat. I think we need more mp before it's ready for widespread use.

It might be fine for landscapes, but not so good for weddings. I shoot a lot of buildings and like sharp photos, but I don't think the IIS is for me based on my shooting.

I also wonder about video on the K-5 IIS - how it fares with moire.

I think it's great that Pentax gave the option to go AA-less. I think they know their shooters are a little more savvy than the average Canon or Nikon shooter. Can you imagine Canon doing this with the Rebel line? All the MWR (mom's with rebels) rise up in protest because the daughters prom dress is all full of strange colored lines

11-11-2012, 09:41 PM   #24
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Will smaller aperture decrease moire?

Hi maybe its been said somewhere but I wonder if a smaller aperture will decrease moire on the IIs. planning to get either the K5II or IIs,and will do nature/wildlife/birding with it. Am concerned on birds feathers,and the fur on animals and macro shots of flowers & insects if moire will be a problem,but if I stop down then will it go away?? from what I see so far the increased resolution of the IIs would give that extra punch to the subjects I like to shoot.
also maybe a dumb question but if I shoot in B&W will I still get moire
Thanks for any help
11-12-2012, 04:43 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
Am concerned on birds feathers,and the fur on animals and macro shots of flowers & insects if moire will be a problem,but if I stop down then will it go away??
You have reason to be concerned, but with f/13 and beyond, you shouldn't have moiré issues anymore.

If you look at K-5 (II) vs K-5 IIs comparisons, though, there isn't much additional "punch" left in the K-5 IIs at these apertures.

QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
...from what I see so far the increased resolution of the IIs would give that extra punch to the subjects I like to shoot.
Unless you intend to heavily crop and/or print at large sizes, the extra punch won't be needed.

QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
also maybe a dumb question but if I shoot in B&W will I still get moire
Yes. It won't show as colour artefacts, but you'll still see luminance variations (as different colours translate into different B&W values).
11-12-2012, 06:44 AM   #26
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Geeks gonna geek.

I bet that in 3 months time (or less) everyone posting in this thread will forget all about the issue of moire.

Normal programming ( full-frame is best!, more AF points are best! etc) will then resume.
11-12-2012, 06:50 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I bet that in 3 months time (or less) everyone posting in this thread will forget all about the issue of moire.
I'll take you up on the bet.

Endless discussions about non-existent options such as a Pentax full (135) frame or 197 AF points are tedious, I quite agree. But at least here we're talking about real cameras, available now. We're only just starting to see enough material to evaluate the IIs in practical use.
11-12-2012, 07:41 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
You have reason to be concerned, but with f/13 and beyond, you shouldn't have moiré issues anymore.

If you look at K-5 (II) vs K-5 IIs comparisons, though, there isn't much additional "punch" left in the K-5 IIs at these apertures.

and at F13 diffraction can set in so any extra sharpness is negated?


Unless you intend to heavily crop and/or print at large sizes, the extra punch won't be needed.

with some bird shots heavy cropping is needed


Yes. It won't show as colour artefacts, but you'll still see luminance variations (as different colours translate into different B&W values).
was thinking of the Leica M10 B&W AA less,but of course choosing B&W in camera is only a filter setting..
11-12-2012, 12:07 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
was thinking of the Leica M10 B&W AA less,but of course choosing B&W in camera is only a filter setting..
The Leica Monochrom is a different story. It has no Bayer-matrix and hence needs no Bayer-AA-filter. It won't produce moiré regardless.
06-05-2013, 03:15 AM   #30
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Personally I think dpreview were a bit negative about the K5IIs - which I see as being a bit prejudiced, they were quick to point out the many problems with using a camera without a Bayer AA filter and did little to demonstrate the practical upsides of the K5IIs.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The Leica Monochrom is a different story. It has no Bayer-matrix and hence needs no Bayer-AA-filter. It won't produce moiré regardless.
Correct - the Leica monochrom is immune to the problems that plague bayer sensors - also the removal of the filters gives the sensor a boost in usability with its high ISO images. The Leica monochrom ISO range goes from ISO 320- to ISO 10000 the Bayer CFA equipped Leica M9 has an ISO range from 160 to 2500. Personally I wouldn't be caught using the M9 at anything higher than ISO1000, the noise is roughly the same as what the Pentax K10D produces at that setting which is really bad considering the performance of the K5IIs, which I consider to be perfectly usable up to ISO 12,800.
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