K5 RAW Preview Image is Desaturated/Overexposed, RAW Correct. WTF?

Epoch of Entropy · 11-14-2012, 07:35 PM

SOLVED! See here.

Guys, a weird issue started happening in just the three days. I'm actively taking photos every day, so I've noticed the abrupt transition when this started occurring. I want to point out that nothing has changed in my software; I haven't updated the camera firmware since September, and Lightroom or Photoshop hasn't updated in a long time. I haven't changed the process, any settings in the camera, no new lenses, etc etc in many months. Please note that I've owned this body since shortly after the K5 came out, so I'm not just "figuring this out".

What I'm seeing happen recently is that when taking a picture, in the camera's LCD preview, it appears undersaturated and very often looks like it's overexposed with a lack of color depth. When initially viewing the thumbnails in Lightroom, it pulls up the JPG from the RAW file and shows as the camera back LCD does, but when Lightroom finishes processing the thumbnails for the RAW file the image appears as I would expect; with rich colors and correct exposure.

At first I thought the aperture blades were sticking, but now that I've seen the RAW files being reprocessed by Lightroom, I believe that somehow the camera's JPG preview rendering function is torqued. Please see the following images which illustrate the issue more clearly.

I'm loathe to do a hard factory reset, as I have a number of USER mode settings and many of the buttons have been modified. I'd like to treat this as a last resort.

Some Information:
RAW Format: DNG
Color Space: AdobeRGB
LCD Color Tuning: 0 / 0

Lenses:
DA 40mm Limited
DA 15mm Limited
DA 70mm Limited

Before Lightroom Processes the Previews:

After Lightroom Processes the Previews:

Last edited by Epoch of Entropy; 11-14-2012 at 08:04 PM. Reason: Problem solved.

xfloggingkylex · 11-14-2012, 07:39 PM

Almost has to be a setting on the camera, the right arrow lets you select vivid, bright etc, make sure there isnt something odd in that. The raw files look fine because the camera settings only apply to jpg.

Epoch of Entropy · 11-14-2012, 07:43 PM

I have no JPG processing settings enabled for JPG record mode. Note that I'm shooting these files as RAW DNG.

Cross Bracketing: Off
Extended Bracketing: Off
Digital Filter: Off
HDR: Off

I've even turned the NR off!

vonBaloney · 11-14-2012, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by Epoch of Entropy

I have no JPG processing settings enabled for JPG record mode. Note that I'm shooting these files as RAW DNG.

Cross Bracketing: Off
Extended Bracketing: Off
Digital Filter: Off
HDR: Off

I've even turned the NR off!

There are always jpg settings of some kind on the camera, from natural, bright, custom, etc. Those are what control the preview, so if you turn the saturation way down in that, then that's what the preview will look like. Easy fix.

oxidized · 11-14-2012, 07:45 PM

I dont think its related to processing. Have you checked your LCD display settings. For instance, if you jack up the display brightness the photos may look overexposed when in fact they are okay...

vonBaloney · 11-14-2012, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by oxidized

I dont think its related to processing. Have you checked your LCD display settings. For instance, if you jack up the display brightness the photos may look overexposed when in fact they are okay...

Then they would still look OK in the initial LR preview, but they don't.

oxidized · 11-14-2012, 07:49 PM

Well, lightroom always does that for me and my K-7. They look too dark and then when they open up they are fine. I used to have the problem when I would shoot with the K-7 and it would look okay on the LCD (not checking the histogram) but when I open them in LR they were too dark. My solution was to decrease the brightness of the LCD so that when they are actually underexposed they would look underexposed on the LCD also

JohnBee · 11-14-2012, 07:51 PM

I don't mean to state the obvious but... are you aware that LR applies adjustments to previews?

oxidized · 11-14-2012, 07:56 PM

Well, I think we are talking about the Library module. Once you get into the develop module and go through presets then yes, the previews would reflect the adjustments. I think he is concerned about why as he is importing them they look too dark but then once imported and opened up then they look okay. Unless I missed something....

Epoch of Entropy · 11-14-2012, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

There are always jpg settings of some kind on the camera, from natural, bright, custom, etc. Those are what control the preview, so if you turn the saturation way down in that, then that's what the preview will look like. Easy fix.

OK, the issue is fixed. I must have somehow pressed the "Custom Image" button accidentally, and set the mode to "Bleach Bypass". This apparently affects the RAW preview... now that's *completely* counter-intuitive to me. I'm not sure I see ANY benefit to this functionality. One would think that even if you were shooting RAW+, this should only affect the JPG, but still show the RAW as is.

Do PEF files store these develop settings and show up in the Pentax RAW processing software with the "magic" already applied to the RAW?

vonBaloney · 11-14-2012, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Epoch of Entropy

OK, the issue is fixed. I must have somehow pressed the "Custom Image" button accidentally, and set the mode to "Bleach Bypass". This apparently affects the RAW preview... now that's *completely* counter-intuitive to me. I'm not sure I see ANY benefit to this functionality. One would think that even if you were shooting RAW+, this should only affect the JPG, but still show the RAW as is.

Do PEF files store these develop settings and show up in the Pentax RAW processing software with the "magic" already applied to the RAW?

There is no such thing as RAW "as-is" -- it MUST be "developed" one way or another to display it at all, so you must make a choice there.

JohnBee · 11-14-2012, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Epoch of Entropy

OK, the issue is fixed. I must have somehow pressed the "Custom Image" button accidentally, and set the mode to "Bleach Bypass". This apparently affects the RAW preview... now that's *completely* counter-intuitive to me. I'm not sure I see ANY benefit to this functionality. One would think that even if you were shooting RAW+, this should only affect the JPG, but still show the RAW as is.

Do PEF files store these develop settings and show up in the Pentax RAW processing software with the "magic" already applied to the RAW?

The camera settings are transferred and read with certain software.

Epoch of Entropy · 11-14-2012, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by JohnBee

I don't mean to state the obvious but... are you aware that LR applies adjustments to previews?

By default when first opening an image LR will first read the preview image in the RAW file for display, then opens the RAW and extracts enough information to generate a new preview image, which then LR gives preference to using and updates the display. It will then ignore the embedded preview image until the cache is purged. You can see this happen in real time by scrolling to images and watching them "pop" into the ACR profile.

AFTER that point, Lightroom then makes "Develop" adjustments to internal catalog preview (which is what I'm thinking you're saying) which was generated from the extracted RAW data, NOT the preview image embedded in the RAW file.

Note my description in the original post refers to before LR processes and after LR processes the embedded previews.

Epoch of Entropy · 11-14-2012, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by JohnBee

The camera settings are transferred and read with certain software.

Useful to know. Might be more useful if LR read it.

Ponosby Britt · 11-14-2012, 10:12 PM

The camera LCD Display is a JPEG display. The RAW file has to converted to be displayed on the camera LCD. The camera histogram is also displaying the JPEG conversion. It has nothing to do however with the Raw DNG file.

From my K-10, two K-20's and two K-5s', I've never shot anything but DNGs. In the past 3 years, I've shot nothing but manual exposure. However, on my K-5s, I used to accidentally switch my preferred "Natural" setting to another setting like "Bleach Bypass". Since I'm always showing previews to customers during sessions it was not ideal. Once I realized I was fat fingering the 4 way controller, it was not a problem.

Bottom line is, there ain't no way to show an image without converting the RAW file. In camera, its a JPEG and some display mode has to be selected. Page 222 in the K-5 manual.

11-14-2012, 07:35 PM	#1
Epoch of Entropy New Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 16	K5 RAW Preview Image is Desaturated/Overexposed, RAW Correct. WTF? SOLVED! See here. Guys, a weird issue started happening in just the three days. I'm actively taking photos every day, so I've noticed the abrupt transition when this started occurring. I want to point out that nothing has changed in my software; I haven't updated the camera firmware since September, and Lightroom or Photoshop hasn't updated in a long time. I haven't changed the process, any settings in the camera, no new lenses, etc etc in many months. Please note that I've owned this body since shortly after the K5 came out, so I'm not just "figuring this out". What I'm seeing happen recently is that when taking a picture, in the camera's LCD preview, it appears undersaturated and very often looks like it's overexposed with a lack of color depth. When initially viewing the thumbnails in Lightroom, it pulls up the JPG from the RAW file and shows as the camera back LCD does, but when Lightroom finishes processing the thumbnails for the RAW file the image appears as I would expect; with rich colors and correct exposure. At first I thought the aperture blades were sticking, but now that I've seen the RAW files being reprocessed by Lightroom, I believe that somehow the camera's JPG preview rendering function is torqued. Please see the following images which illustrate the issue more clearly. I'm loathe to do a hard factory reset, as I have a number of USER mode settings and many of the buttons have been modified. I'd like to treat this as a last resort. Some Information: RAW Format: DNG Color Space: AdobeRGB LCD Color Tuning: 0 / 0 Lenses: DA 40mm Limited DA 15mm Limited DA 70mm Limited Before Lightroom Processes the Previews: After Lightroom Processes the Previews: Last edited by Epoch of Entropy; 11-14-2012 at 08:04 PM. Reason: Problem solved.

11-14-2012, 08:02 PM	#10
Epoch of Entropy New Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 16 Original Poster	Solved Originally posted by vonBaloney There are always jpg settings of some kind on the camera, from natural, bright, custom, etc. Those are what control the preview, so if you turn the saturation way down in that, then that's what the preview will look like. Easy fix. OK, the issue is fixed. I must have somehow pressed the "Custom Image" button accidentally, and set the mode to "Bleach Bypass". This apparently affects the RAW preview... now that's completely counter-intuitive to me. I'm not sure I see ANY benefit to this functionality. One would think that even if you were shooting RAW+, this should only affect the JPG, but still show the RAW as is. Do PEF files store these develop settings and show up in the Pentax RAW processing software with the "magic" already applied to the RAW?

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11-14-2012, 07:39 PM	#2
xfloggingkylex Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Frederick, MD USA Posts: 111	Almost has to be a setting on the camera, the right arrow lets you select vivid, bright etc, make sure there isnt something odd in that. The raw files look fine because the camera settings only apply to jpg.

11-14-2012, 07:43 PM	#3
Epoch of Entropy New Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 16 Original Poster	I have no JPG processing settings enabled for JPG record mode. Note that I'm shooting these files as RAW DNG. Cross Bracketing: Off Extended Bracketing: Off Digital Filter: Off HDR: Off I've even turned the NR off!

11-14-2012, 07:45 PM	#4
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by Epoch of Entropy I have no JPG processing settings enabled for JPG record mode. Note that I'm shooting these files as RAW DNG. Cross Bracketing: Off Extended Bracketing: Off Digital Filter: Off HDR: Off I've even turned the NR off! There are always jpg settings of some kind on the camera, from natural, bright, custom, etc. Those are what control the preview, so if you turn the saturation way down in that, then that's what the preview will look like. Easy fix.

11-14-2012, 07:45 PM	#5
oxidized Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: USA - Delaware Photos: Albums Posts: 435	I dont think its related to processing. Have you checked your LCD display settings. For instance, if you jack up the display brightness the photos may look overexposed when in fact they are okay...

11-14-2012, 07:46 PM	#6
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by oxidized I dont think its related to processing. Have you checked your LCD display settings. For instance, if you jack up the display brightness the photos may look overexposed when in fact they are okay... Then they would still look OK in the initial LR preview, but they don't.

11-14-2012, 07:49 PM	#7
oxidized Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: USA - Delaware Photos: Albums Posts: 435	Well, lightroom always does that for me and my K-7. They look too dark and then when they open up they are fine. I used to have the problem when I would shoot with the K-7 and it would look okay on the LCD (not checking the histogram) but when I open them in LR they were too dark. My solution was to decrease the brightness of the LCD so that when they are actually underexposed they would look underexposed on the LCD also

11-14-2012, 07:51 PM	#8
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	I don't mean to state the obvious but... are you aware that LR applies adjustments to previews?

11-14-2012, 07:56 PM	#9
oxidized Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: USA - Delaware Photos: Albums Posts: 435	Well, I think we are talking about the Library module. Once you get into the develop module and go through presets then yes, the previews would reflect the adjustments. I think he is concerned about why as he is importing them they look too dark but then once imported and opened up then they look okay. Unless I missed something....

11-14-2012, 08:06 PM	#11
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by Epoch of Entropy OK, the issue is fixed. I must have somehow pressed the "Custom Image" button accidentally, and set the mode to "Bleach Bypass". This apparently affects the RAW preview... now that's completely counter-intuitive to me. I'm not sure I see ANY benefit to this functionality. One would think that even if you were shooting RAW+, this should only affect the JPG, but still show the RAW as is. Do PEF files store these develop settings and show up in the Pentax RAW processing software with the "magic" already applied to the RAW? There is no such thing as RAW "as-is" -- it MUST be "developed" one way or another to display it at all, so you must make a choice there.

11-14-2012, 08:10 PM	#12
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	Originally posted by Epoch of Entropy OK, the issue is fixed. I must have somehow pressed the "Custom Image" button accidentally, and set the mode to "Bleach Bypass". This apparently affects the RAW preview... now that's completely counter-intuitive to me. I'm not sure I see ANY benefit to this functionality. One would think that even if you were shooting RAW+, this should only affect the JPG, but still show the RAW as is. Do PEF files store these develop settings and show up in the Pentax RAW processing software with the "magic" already applied to the RAW? The camera settings are transferred and read with certain software.

11-14-2012, 08:20 PM	#13
Epoch of Entropy New Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 16 Original Poster	Originally posted by JohnBee I don't mean to state the obvious but... are you aware that LR applies adjustments to previews? By default when first opening an image LR will first read the preview image in the RAW file for display, then opens the RAW and extracts enough information to generate a new preview image, which then LR gives preference to using and updates the display. It will then ignore the embedded preview image until the cache is purged. You can see this happen in real time by scrolling to images and watching them "pop" into the ACR profile. AFTER that point, Lightroom then makes "Develop" adjustments to internal catalog preview (which is what I'm thinking you're saying) which was generated from the extracted RAW data, NOT the preview image embedded in the RAW file. Note my description in the original post refers to before LR processes and after LR processes the embedded previews.

11-14-2012, 08:21 PM	#14
Epoch of Entropy New Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 16 Original Poster	Originally posted by JohnBee The camera settings are transferred and read with certain software. Useful to know. Might be more useful if LR read it.

11-14-2012, 10:12 PM	#15
Ponosby Britt Closed Account Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 227	The camera LCD Display is a JPEG display. The RAW file has to converted to be displayed on the camera LCD. The camera histogram is also displaying the JPEG conversion. It has nothing to do however with the Raw DNG file. From my K-10, two K-20's and two K-5s', I've never shot anything but DNGs. In the past 3 years, I've shot nothing but manual exposure. However, on my K-5s, I used to accidentally switch my preferred "Natural" setting to another setting like "Bleach Bypass". Since I'm always showing previews to customers during sessions it was not ideal. Once I realized I was fat fingering the 4 way controller, it was not a problem. Bottom line is, there ain't no way to show an image without converting the RAW file. In camera, its a JPEG and some display mode has to be selected. Page 222 in the K-5 manual.