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03-24-2013, 08:18 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by EchoOscar Quote
I'm sure Porsche do feel the pressure now, and are busy redesigning the 911 to conform with the family car buyers as soon as possible.



That's what you get when you try to compete on all levels (and let's not bring up the Cayenne, please!).

03-24-2013, 08:21 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
(Deep breath... deep breath...) I can understand your concern or confusion, especially given that you are not doing the comparison yourself. However, I see absolutely nothing wrong with my FA 31mm in any of the posted images, or in any other images I've shot with this lens in the past years. It is a "very good copy" as some folks like to say!

Naturally, I know this statement alone will not be enough to counter the FUD (or just disbelief) that a sensor design or lack of sharpening can make that much of a difference. (Also, please note that both ACR and Lightroom apply "default sharpening" to all raw files - you need to actively find and reduce this setting if you don't want it!) So is the reason there's such a dramatic difference not that the Foveon sensor can out-resolve more a Bayer sensor of the same size (as most of the internet thinks), but either that I'm using a K-5 and not a K-5IIs (8% difference?), or that my 31mm lens is defective (see below), or that I misfocused on every example image, or that I'm excluding the EXIF to properly know the images are comparable? This isn't a retort to anyone in particular, but the quotes above represent most of what I've read when "dramatic comparisons" want to be questioned.
Ugh.

So, to get rid of the lens/focus issue straw man, I've made attachments (for the dropdown EXIF) of four 100% crops from this very morning, doing my "backyard test" of, in order, the DP2M, my FA31, my DA35 Macro, and my FA43. Four very sharp lenses, all focused on the distant trees, and processed without default sharpening! What are the odds that all of my (LensAligned) Pentax Limited lenses in that focal length range are defective? (Oh dear, I might also have offended with the truth that the DA35mm Macro is a little better at infinity than the FA's... Michael Johnston save me!)

Of course, I also understand the nature of the "internet photographer," so here is a link to download the 180 megs of raw files (and my ACR .xmp files) to allow lots of up-close-and-personal time with the files if there still be doubts (sigh, which there will be). For those who don't want to go the extra mile and download Sigma's processing software, I've included the converted tiff file from the DP2 as well...

Great gravy boats!
Based on your images, FA31 should be sharper than the 35limited. Yes Sigma out resolves Pentax - that was never in doubt. It's just that the difference maybe lesser than what you are showing with the pictures. Also I presume the pictures are from the center image.
03-24-2013, 08:40 AM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Foveon has a long way to go to catch up in the high ISO race.
Now this is where, I differ with a lot of folks on the forum.

People talk about AF, DoF, focus points, all kinds of crazy things, but as a photographer, my main concern is, "What produces the best possible image,in a manageable package."

You can argue that the low ISO capability is a hindrance, as is slow AF etc. etc., but, it has always been true, that the cameras that record teh best images, have had the highest numbers of negatives. I once carted an 8x10 film camera onto he subway in Tornto to do a shot of a church that would demonstrate my prowess with tilt and shift. It was a huge suitcase. And I set up and a street and put my head under this little cloth and produced a distortion free steeple shot that you probably can't match with anything but a view camera.

That was the best image available. Ask me about the speed of AF, my able to control my ISO, etc.. One of the pictures on my wall, taken of me breaking out of the backfield at a football game, was taken but a guy using a technica press camera. He set up, he got one shot and he had to focus with a rangefinder. And he was really good at it.

But the thing is that's how you get the best image.

This thing about taking a camera that will get you possibly a superior image and then starting to complain about the limitations is good, in that people don't go buy the camera, with out realizing they are in for a bit of ride. The video was very informative for that.

But, you have to end up saying, to get teh best landscape image possible from a small compact camera, you have to put up with the poor ISO performance. And Foveon doesn't have to catch up. You wouldn't say "the rest of the world has to catch up with Foveon IQ" But you should. because you're a photographer, and after all the work, you're end product is an image. No one cares if the AF sucked, if the ISO was low, if it was darn near impossible to get the image into your PP software, if you had to wait 10 seconds to see the image, if the battery died while you were out taking pictures. All those things are pretty much moot. They look at the picture, and it's the best, and they say wow, and that's what you want as a photographer.

How much work you had to do to get it and what you had to put up with, is to my mind irrelevant. Go for the best, go for excellence, the rest of it is fluff. If I can get an 800 camera that will give me D800 quality landscapes in a small APS-c package... I'll still be carrying my K-5, but , what an addition to my kit that would be.
03-24-2013, 09:36 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
(Deep breath... deep breath...) I can understand your concern or confusion, especially given that you are not doing the comparison yourself. However, I see absolutely nothing wrong with my FA 31mm in any of the posted images, or in any other images I've shot with this lens in the past years. It is a "very good copy" as some folks like to say!
Hey Panoguy, I didn't mean to upset you. I think you are a great photographer and you have some really cool equipment. I also appreciate that you took the time to do all these tests. Thanks, its very interesting. I just had to express my surprise, I did not expect such a dramatic difference, especially considering the legendary status of the lenses you used and some other comparisons I have seen online way back when. I just wanted to, you know, check out your methodology and equipment. Of course, now you pretty much dispelled all those worries. Btw, Daft Punk is pretty awesome.

03-24-2013, 09:59 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spotmatic Quote
I don't want to try to recall the number of times when 'the light was right' and the K5 was at home.
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
As a photographer, my main concern is, "What produces the best possible image,in a manageable package." [...] After all the work, you're end product is an image. No one cares if the AF sucked, if the ISO was low, if it was darn near impossible to get the image into your PP software, if you had to wait 10 seconds to see the image, if the battery died while you were out taking pictures. All those things are pretty much moot. They look at the picture, and it's the best, and they say wow, and that's what you want as a photographer.
This is the reason I bought the DP2M. All I cared about was portability and IQ. Sigma must have read my mind, because the DP offers just that and little else anyone would like. As long as the camera's with me when I need it, all the things Normhead listed can be worked around. Besides, do you not feel better about a picture when you know you worked hard to get it?

If I'm not mistaken, the 8x10 view camera Normhead mentioned is still offers the absolute best IQ possible. It also offers the absolute worst in usability and portability. This is not a coincidence. The mere fact that the DP-M can compete with a D800E and fit in your pocket is a heck of an achievement.

I don't think it's a matter of anyone "catching up." The Foveon is a very different technology. It does one thing, and does it very well. Something that tries to be everything all at once winds up not doing anything very well.
03-24-2013, 10:07 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
Btw, Daft Punk is pretty awesome.
+1 Panoguy, your sig should be, "Charge it, point it, zoom it, press it, snap it, work it, quick - erase it."
03-24-2013, 10:10 AM   #67
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The new album by Daft Punk is coming out in May. Yay!
03-24-2013, 10:38 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by TrueFocus Quote
I wish Sigma would bring out a new gen. Foveon sensor in a sane camera body. That could shake up things a bit, especially since they have the A/S/C lens lines now.

Normhead and EchoOscar, you are taking my statement out of context. I will explain once again what I mean. TrueFocus said that a new improved Foveon in a better body would shake things up. I disagree, because to shake things up, they would have to sell a lot of new Sigma cameras. And they can't sell a lot of Sigmas unless the ISO performance improves to the point where it is competitve (3 stops?). I am not saying anything at all about the IQ of the Sigma Merrills, I know they are amazing at what they do well. which I also stated in this thread.

I do think this thread is set up for the Pentax to look bad, because no one uses unsharpened photos in real life. Also, "no added sharpness" is a meaningless concept. The raw file is being interpreted by the software, which treats Sigma files different than Pentax. To show a meaningful difference, process each file to the best of your ability, or better yet post raw files so we can have a go.

Panoguy, your FA 31mm clearly has a problem. No way the DA 35 should outresolve it.

03-24-2013, 11:26 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
(Deep breath... deep breath...)
Ugh.

So, to get rid of the straw man...
I think we've established by now that that's not going to happen. As usual. Ho hum.
We might as well all take a deep breath, and move on.
03-24-2013, 01:25 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
Hey Panoguy, I didn't mean to upset you.
Not upset at anything but the weird undercurrent of "this wasn't a rigid, scientific test, so the results aren't valid." So my response was more to double-check and try to dispel the idea that something wasn't functioning correctly, and that this supposed malfunction resulted in the dramatic differences in the images. I think everything is functioning correctly here (including our abilities to communicate - yay!), but not necessarily as expected.

The reason I posted so many samples was to show that, really, the DP2M really shines in certain shots when compared to the K-5 and a good lens, but not in every situation. I personally prefer the K-5/31mm shot of the lock for color and contrast, and think it's only slightly behind the Foveon for fine details. Beyond that, the 31mm certainly beats the Sigma at f/1.8 - f/2.4!

QuoteOriginally posted by TrueFocus Quote
The new album by Daft Punk is coming out in May. Yay!
Woot!

QuoteOriginally posted by EchoOscar Quote
I think we've established by now that that's not going to happen. As usual. Ho hum.
We might as well all take a deep breath, and move on.
I'm fine with that. I posted a photo of a Porsche Panamera, so my on-topicness is getting wobbly anyhow...

Last edited by panoguy; 03-24-2013 at 01:34 PM.
03-27-2013, 01:59 PM   #71
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Panoguy, good effort!

You are also welcome to borrow my NEX-5n and sigma 30mm F2.8 DN / Pentax K adapter.
As you mentioned - the 30mm elements are different than the Merrill, and the 5-n has a (very light) anti-aliasing filter (supposed to be lighter than the K-5).

But it would be interesting. I'm using this combo for exactly the intended Merrill purpose (considered landscapes).
03-27-2013, 02:37 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clarkey Quote
Panoguy, good effort!

You are also welcome to borrow my NEX-5n and sigma 30mm F2.8 DN / Pentax K adapter.
As you mentioned - the 30mm elements are different than the Merrill, and the 5-n has a (very light) anti-aliasing filter (supposed to be lighter than the K-5).

But it would be interesting. I'm using this combo for exactly the intended Merrill purpose (considered landscapes).
Thanks for the props!

Is the sensor in the NEX-5n the same (or similar to) the one in the K-5, D7000, A77, etc.? But before you answer, I think I've strained my "camera comparison gland" with this thread, so how about I loan you the DP2 Merrill and you can start that thread?
03-27-2013, 03:05 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Thanks for the props!

Is the sensor in the NEX-5n the same (or similar to) the one in the K-5, D7000, A77, etc.? But before you answer, I think I've strained my "camera comparison gland" with this thread, so how about I loan you the DP2 Merrill and you can start that thread?
Yes, I believe it is.
Sure - I can do my best to give some semblance of a comparison review (my back yard is not as pretty though, and my post processing skills nowhere near as advanced). I'm out of town this weekend. I'll check in with the crew and give you a PM, and we can go from there.

If anyone has specific landscapy things they want to see, let me know! Hopefully by the time I do this we will have some texture detail again (grass, and probably a million dandelions).
03-27-2013, 04:37 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clarkey Quote
If anyone has specific landscapy things they want to see, let me know! Hopefully by the time I do this we will have some texture detail again (grass, and probably a million dandelions).
I want to see cherry blossoms at High Park.
04-01-2013, 09:39 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Thanks for the props!

Is the sensor in the NEX-5n the same (or similar to) the one in the K-5, D7000, A77, etc.?
Umm, not quite. K5 and D7000 maybe, but more like a55, not a77. The a77 has the same 24mp sensor used in NEX-7.
As for the lightness of the AA filter in NEX-5n, I tend to doubt that, but won't start arguing about it, not without better data. But based on empirical findings, it looks more like average, rather than light.

But I totally agree with the point (or lack thereof) in doing these comparisons. Not everyone has an inexhaustible or pedantic enough nerd gland. But surely it has all been said at least once already, so...
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