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03-21-2013, 11:53 AM   #31
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apples and oranges..

You really want to compare the K5IIs with the Sigma.
I had the K5 and upgraded to the K5IIs.
A similar difference between those two, so absolutely no use comparing an AA-filterless camera with a camera that has an average strength AA filter in unsharpened RAW.
I would suggest to end this comparison and let somebody with the Sigma ánd the K5IIs pick it up, because this is really comparing apples and oranges.
The K5 needs some pretty strong sharpening to compensate for the fairly prominent AA filter.

Regards
Chris

03-21-2013, 05:39 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Sigma is showing some weird Magenta/Green patchiness, while the K-5 is pretty much smooth, tonally. I think this shows both a flaw in the Foveon color response to bright neutrals, and the advantage of blurring (AA filter) the image a bit at first, to then try and recover it with sharpening later. Subtle tones across larger areas are better preserved in the K-5, but tiny bits of color are picked up by the DP2M (though those stones are not sprayed with magenta and green!).
Getting rid of the green and magenta patches is easy, just use the base ISO or expose the shot a bit more. I've had those on some less lit surfaces when slightly underexposing in, say, ISO 200 or 400. Lower the ISO to 100 and/or give the darker areas some more light, and the blotches are gone, and you're left with smooth and detailed surfaces. That's a known Foveon issue, it's not a high-ISO camera. I hardly ever use anything but ISO 100 and 200 in my Sigma DSLR.

Shooting with a Sigma/Foveon camera is the closest you can get to shooting slide film, both in good and bad. Your range is rather limited but, when working within that range, the results are sweet. I've grown to like the Foveon look in all its quirkiness, after I learned to embrace it as it is, and appreciate it for what it is, and not trying to agonize or fight against what it isn't. It's nowhere near perfect in any way, but at its best it's very nice. A pure enthusiasts' choice, certainly not everyone's cup of tea.

Oh and I agree about the ACR thing, why bother, it's apparently made for Bayer sensors only. I've never used anything but SPP and Aperture for my X3F files. Maybe an occasional tweak in onOne Perfect PhotoSuite, too, once the first conversion has been done in SPP.
But in general, to get the most out of the Foveon sensor, always shoot RAW only, and keep the files far away from anything Adobe.
03-21-2013, 05:47 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
I would suggest to end this comparison and let somebody with the Sigma ánd the K5IIs pick it up, because this is really comparing apples and oranges.
Very helpful suggestion; I can't wait to skim through your thread on the topic.
Richard, any comparison between a Bayer-pattern sensor (AA-less or not) and a Foveon with nearly the same amount of photosites is still, as you say, "comparing apples and oranges." I wonder why anyone would bother to compare a fixed-lens compact with a interchangeable-lens DSLR in the first place? They're not even close to the same thing!

QuoteOriginally posted by EchoOscar Quote
Getting rid of the green and magenta patches is easy, just use the base ISO or expose the shot a bit more.
Thanks! I'll give that a try. Like I've said, I'm just getting to know the camera, sensor, and the processing software. The raw files have quite a bit of highlight headroom, so pushing the exposure shouldn't be a problem.

Last edited by panoguy; 03-22-2013 at 08:19 AM.
03-21-2013, 11:19 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Well, that's the problem... there is no version of that 35mm lens for Pentax (and frankly, most of the rest of Sigma's line aren't up to the level of the Limited primes, so everything would be degraded).
A bit off-topic, but the lens is available in Pentax mount now! I am talking about the recently announced Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM | A.
Check under Tech Specs: 35mm F1.4 DG HSM | A | Sigma

03-22-2013, 06:23 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by TrueFocus Quote
A bit off-topic, but the lens is available in Pentax mount now! I am talking about the recently announced Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM | A.
Check under Tech Specs: 35mm F1.4 DG HSM | A | Sigma
Sadly, it's not available for Pentax yet. Looks like B&H expects them at end of April. From all the Canon & Nikon-mount reviews so far, it will probably be a stellar lens on Pentax when it arrives! But that's the issue; someone (in the US) could rent a Sigma SD1 with that lens from LensRentals.com, but only in May can it be compared to a Pentax with the same lens...

Last edited by panoguy; 03-22-2013 at 06:29 AM.
03-22-2013, 10:20 AM   #36
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Oh, I wasn't aware that it isn't available in the states yet. It seems that over here they already have it in online stores.
Anyways, I am intrigued as to how it will perform.
03-22-2013, 11:28 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Very helpful suggestion; I can't wait to skim through your thread on the topic.
Richard, any comparison between a Bayer-pattern sensor (AA-less or not) and a Foveon with nearly the same amount of photosites is still, as you say, "comparing apples and oranges." I wonder why anyone would bother to compare a fixed-lens compact with a interchangeable-lens DSLR in the first place? They're not even close to the same thing!
I would gladly oblige you, but I am awaiting the Pentax full frame camera and reserving funds for that.
Apart from that, the concept of a Foveon sensor in a pocketable camera with high quality fixed all-round lens, sounds intriguing. Sony's full frame/Zeiss version has been well received.
But even though you are still comparing different concepts, at least with the k5IIs you have "bare sensor performance", with no blurring filter between sensor and lens.
So you would get a good look at the strengths of tuning a fixed focal length lens to the camera, and Foveon versus bayer.

Chris

03-22-2013, 12:36 PM   #38
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Awesome comparison, panoguy! After much research, I'm ordering the Sigma now, and I do have a K-5 IIs to compare it to. I have a thing for niche products, and I wanted something small enought to take with me all the time. It'll be about a week before I get it. Maybe I can do some comparison then?

What's this talk of the Sigma 35mm? Wouldn't the discontinued 30mm f/1.4 be closer to the 30mm on the DP2M? I have one of them, so that's what I'll test with. I love that lens to death. It's part of the reason I'm so enthusiastic about the DP2M.

Should I start a new thread for the filterless comparison?
03-23-2013, 03:16 AM   #39
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The idea was to use a really great lens on different bodies. You could use the 30mm f1.4 as well, but it would have to be on the K-5 and SD1. Otherwise there are far too many variables and differences.
Besides, most likely the DP2 body has very fine-tuned aberration correction turned on.

P.S.
I am not doubting that the Foveon sensor is awesome, I would gladly have one myself, I just want the comparison to be meaningful.
03-23-2013, 05:24 AM   #40
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This is only on You Tube but I remember they compared the DP to a D800E


Last edited by bossa; 03-23-2013 at 05:34 AM.
03-23-2013, 05:58 AM   #41
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That's a nice comparison... too bad they didn't have any other camera bodies with them. That's the trouble with these kinds of things, OK so that's what a print from a Merrel and a D800 look like, but what I need is what do they look like compared to a K-5? Or a D7000. The work he had to go through to get the image I can live with. The big question is, will it make a difference to me. Another big thing this is bring out is, there's a difference between MTF resolution and sharpness. It would seem that the Merrel is able to produce sharpness, with much less resolution... at least that's what I understood from the video.
03-23-2013, 07:12 AM   #42
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I'd like to see a comparison where the K-5 contrast is bumped up instead of just the sharpness slider. It's the end image that matters more than a particular software's interpretation of the raw file. If you use Pentax DCU4 and set the camera for Reversal Film for example, these photos will be much punchier, much more like the Sigma files.
03-23-2013, 09:07 AM   #43
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I wish Sigma would bring out a new gen. Foveon sensor in a sane camera body. That could shake up things a bit, especially since they have the A/S/C lens lines now. That makes me think, maybe Tamron will start making lenses in Sigma mount as well xD
03-23-2013, 09:14 AM   #44
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Foveon has a long way to go to catch up in the high ISO race.
03-23-2013, 09:48 AM   #45
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"This camera is a camera that basically nobody has bought. With good reason, because it's a piece of crap."

QuoteOriginally posted by TrueFocus Quote
The idea was to use a really great lens on different bodies. You could use the 30mm f1.4 as well, but it would have to be on the K-5 and SD1. Otherwise there are far too many variables and differences.

P.S.
I am not doubting that the Foveon sensor is awesome, I would gladly have one myself, I just want the comparison to be meaningful.
Ah, I didn't catch your reference to Sigma's DSLR earlier in the thread. Sure, that would be the ideal comparison, but I don't think that will ever happen. With the DP series, no one really has any reason to buy the SD1. Among the people who actually bought the SD1, for whatever reason, their chances of also having a K-5 are about zero.

Personally, I'd rather see a comparison between the DP2 and the K-5 IIs. There's no reason to buy the SD1 when the DP series already has the best lens pairings you can get with the Foveon sensor, and for much cheaper, in a much smaller package. A comparison between the K-5 and SD1 would be more accurate, but far less meaningful, IMHO.
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