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04-29-2013, 06:45 PM   #1
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64MP from a 16MP Sensor?

Hasselblad recently created 200MP images by 'shaking' a 50MP sensor and I'm wondering if something as 'simple' as a firmware update for the K-5 could make a similar feature available for Pentax users. This could also be used to compensate for the Bayer filter rejecting 2/3 of the light going to the sensor thus possibly becoming a kind of real-time HDR feature.

Could the next Pentax camera be a 16MP sensor without a Bayer filter and with a feature like this?

Hasselblad Squeezes 200MP Images By Shaking a 50MB Sensor | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

04-29-2013, 07:14 PM   #2
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The only thing in the way that I can see is patent issues. I thought the same when I saw the Hassel the first time.
04-29-2013, 07:30 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
The only thing in the way that I can see is patent issues. I thought the same when I saw the Hassel the first time.
I'm not sure if they can patent a moving sensor or even what an existing one can be used for. Then again, I'm not an industrial lawyer, or privy to any patents that may exist. I'd love to see if it could work though.
04-29-2013, 07:34 PM   #4
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IIRC, that 200MP Hassy can only shoot things that don't move because it's so slow. Would a 64MP version do 1/4000, I wonder.

04-29-2013, 07:40 PM   #5
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Actually increasing the effective resolution would need you to extend the duration of the exposure to accommodate the second+ sensor position. If you shifted it without lengthening the exposure, you might be able to improve the quality of the interpolation, but it would still essentially be a 16 mp image (though it would likely certainly be sharper than a conventional interpolation).

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04-29-2013, 07:42 PM   #6
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I remember, "inventing" this as a teenager and trying to sell it to a friend of the family who owned a company that sold (then cutting-edge) CCDs for scientific purposes, only to learn that this had been done long before. This was about 20 years ago, so any patents that existed should have expired by now.

Or maybe someone sold "my invention" to Hassy
04-29-2013, 07:42 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I'm not sure if they can patent a moving sensor or even what an existing one can be used for.
...
In the USA, you can patent practically anything it seems. And chances are you will be granted a patent too. You can even patent how you give your employees a raise as well as other business methods. Look up the Tarzan Swing patent. IIRC, it has since been revoked but it was a tree swing described in technical terms by a patent click to show how ridiculous things have become and he even describe using a Tarzan yell.
04-29-2013, 07:45 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
In the USA, you can patent practically anything it seems. And chances are you will be granted a patent too. You can even patent how you give your employees a raise as well as other business methods. Look up the Tarzan Swing patent. IIRC, it has since been revoked but it was a tree swing described in technical terms by a patent click to show how ridiculous things have become and he even describe using a Tarzan yell.
Insane!

04-29-2013, 07:49 PM   #9
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I'm not sure if you could actually move the sensor during one exposure and gate, or sample, the output a few times at 1 to 1.5pixel radii. If not, you'd have to do this as a form of bracketing I think.
04-29-2013, 09:19 PM   #10
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I posted about this week or so ago here (post #8). Pentax has all the technological parts already since they "dither" the sensors position, and in their in camera HDR they combine the images. All they need to do is to apply them in a slightly different approach. What is different here is that you know beforehand the direction and the amount of movement (left, up, right right, down down, left left, with each set of movements of about 1.5 pixels),. What you want to do is to fill in the gaps within the Bayer pattern to increase the resolution, and or shift the Bayer pattern over a different pixel color, so as to mimic the Foveon sensor. I would think that with 4 images you could fill in the holes and with 6 images, you could achieve a stacking of the pixels.

Actually, the implementation could be done to either fill in the holes, or stack the Bayer pattern with different colors shifted into the same position - i.e. the Foveon sensor. The user could possibly have their choice - i.e., two additional modes.

It would definitely take longer since you would have 6 discrete images to capture (the original with an additional 5 dithered in various directions). With SR the time to dither the sensor would be nearly instantaneous. The one aspect that I would hope that they would change is how they combine the raw images into the resulting image. Two approaches come to mind.
  1. In camera - combine the raw images into a single resulting image (hopefully in a RAW format and not just a JPG like in the current HDR implementation. Since this is a composite of 6 individual images into a single resulting image (much larger), the current K5/II/IIs would probably not have sufficient buffering available.
  2. Out of camera - Have the camera record the individual raw frames similar to automatic Bracketing (with additional annotations in the EXIF, direction and amount of the dither), then within post processing have a utility combine the images and produce the resulting image (I would hope as a TIFF or DNG). This approach would certainly solve the buffering size problem, but would probably need a customized post processing utility provided with the camera.
I would certainly think that this could be an additional shooting mode. It would certainly - I think be popular with landscape photographers. This is just a slight variation in the way you stack images.

I would believe that this is very similar to, but an ever so slightly different approach to what is used in image exploitation. A combination of various sensor types, for example visible light imagery with IR and or SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) imaging. The difference is shape and size of the "pixels", in that visible light pixels are usually square and small, while IR pixels are rectangular and a bit larger, so the alignment tends to skew the results. SAR which is a single composite line of pixels, that are striped together and run as a "roll of toilet paper" for an indefinite length.

Astronomers stack images from different sensors all the time.


Last edited by interested_observer; 04-29-2013 at 09:24 PM.
04-29-2013, 09:32 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
I posted about this week or so ago here (post #8). Pentax has all the technological parts already since they "dither" the sensors position, and in their in camera HDR they combine the images. All they need to do is to apply them in a slightly different approach. What is different here is that you know beforehand the direction and the amount of movement (left, up, right right, down down, left left, with each set of movements of about 1.5 pixels),. What you want to do is to fill in the gaps within the Bayer pattern to increase the resolution, and or shift the Bayer pattern over a different pixel color, so as to mimic the Foveon sensor. I would think that with 4 images you could fill in the holes and with 6 images, you could achieve a stacking of the pixels.

Actually, the implementation could be done to either fill in the holes, or stack the Bayer pattern with different colors shifted into the same position - i.e. the Foveon sensor. The user could possibly have their choice - i.e., two additional modes.

It would definitely take longer since you would have 6 discrete images to capture (the original with an additional 5 dithered in various directions). With SR the time to dither the sensor would be nearly instantaneous. The one aspect that I would hope that they would change is how they combine the raw images into the resulting image. Two approaches come to mind.
  1. In camera - combine the raw images into a single resulting image (hopefully in a RAW format and not just a JPG like in the current HDR implementation. Since this is a composite of 6 individual images into a single resulting image (much larger), the current K5/II/IIs would probably not have sufficient buffering available.
  2. Out of camera - Have the camera record the individual raw frames similar to automatic Bracketing (with additional annotations in the EXIF, direction and amount of the dither), then within post processing have a utility combine the images and produce the resulting image (I would hope as a TIFF or DNG). This approach would certainly solve the buffering size problem, but would probably need a customized post processing utility provided with the camera.
I would certainly think that this could be an additional shooting mode. It would certainly - I think be popular with landscape photographers. This is just a slight variation in the way you stack images.

I would believe that this is very similar to, but an ever so slightly different approach to what is used in image exploitation. A combination of various sensor types, for example visible light imagery with IR and or SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) imaging. The difference is shape and size of the "pixels", in that visible light pixels are usually square and small, while IR pixels are rectangular and a bit larger, so the alignment tends to skew the results. SAR which is a single composite line of pixels, that are striped together and run as a "roll of toilet paper" for an indefinite length.

Astronomers stack images from different sensors all the time.

A great post, thanks. These methods as well as in camera Focus Bracketing would be pretty useful features to add to any camera.
04-29-2013, 10:18 PM   #12
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This effect was just recently discussed in post by falconeye and others. As I recall using SR to shake the image (and taking/blending several exposures) in conjunction with available software can do this.
04-29-2013, 10:36 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by dms Quote
This effect was just recently discussed in post by falconeye and others. As I recall using SR to shake the image (and taking/blending several exposures) in conjunction with available software can do this.
Are you suggesting that we can already do this with existing Software? If so, can you supply a name or link here?

Cheers
04-29-2013, 11:33 PM   #14
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Photoacute? I know I read recently about a software to increase resolution by merging many exposures at (very) slightly different position and falconeye's suggestion about same.
04-30-2013, 12:37 AM   #15
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Thanks I'll look it up.
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