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09-14-2013, 11:59 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
I like the idea behind using DNG, but unfortunately Adobes own software forces me to stick to PEF!

The reason is my strong favouring of XMP sidecar files. Why that? Because they are so tiny, their (mass) processing is much much faster, when using meta data editing Tools such as ExifTool or GeoSetter. Secondly, because they are plain text files, this opens up complementary editing methods, e.g. quick search-&-replace within all XMP files of a directory, with a single press of a button, when using powerful text editors (e.g. Notepad++). Thirdly, because they are detached from the RAW file, doing several backups during a long meta data editing session is very quick.

I don't like about Adobe, that DNG and XMP doesn't seem to go together? At least I haven't found a config setting, where I can tell Adobe tools to never touch DNG files, but to put all metadata changes into XMP files instead? Making DNG files read-only doesn't help, because then metadata is not editable at all.

Or has anyone found a trick to have a DNG-with-XMP metadata workflow, even with Adobe software?
Are you using Lightroom? Because Lightroom has a setting to write XMP sidecar files, it's in the catalog settings. I've never tried it though.

09-15-2013, 08:27 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by twitch Quote
Don't be surprised as there hasn't been a single case I can recall when a new camera from any manufacturer didn't have a new RAW format. It happens every single time.
I do not know why, but for example I have a Canon S95 ( I know, I know) and PSE could not read the RAW files, but if you changed the EXIF data on the files from S95 to S90, which my PSE version could read, it worked fine. So there is not really a difference between theses files, but the RAW converter did not know about the camera and could not read it. Maybe something similar with the PEF files from the K5 and K5II.

Using DNG probably does lock you into Adobe products, but having a cross camera platform sounds very useful
09-15-2013, 11:25 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Basie Quote
I do not know why, but for example I have a Canon S95 ( I know, I know) and PSE could not read the RAW files, but if you changed the EXIF data on the files from S95 to S90, which my PSE version could read, it worked fine. So there is not really a difference between theses files, but the RAW converter did not know about the camera and could not read it. Maybe something similar with the PEF files from the K5 and K5II.
I covered that earlier in this thread.

The raw converter could read the file, but didn't know the details of the camera and especially the sensor, so couldn't handle it. Camera/sensor details are mostly not held in non-DNG raw files.

QuoteOriginally posted by Basie Quote
Using DNG probably does lock you into Adobe products, but having a cross camera platform sounds very useful
It doesn't lock you into Adobe products. Hundreds of products support DNG in some way.

It is much easier to identify the products that don't support DNG in some way! These include most products from camera manufacturers.
09-16-2013, 11:34 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbope Quote
Are you using Lightroom? Because Lightroom has a setting to write XMP sidecar files, it's in the catalog settings. I've never tried it though.
No, I'm using Photoshop (which means, its Bridge module for browsing photos and managing most metadata). Photoshop/Bridge don't share Lightrooms concept of 'catalogs' though. Bridge seems to derive the metadata set (the selection choices, the keyword hierarchies, etc) always directly from the image files (PEF, DNG or JPG) and XMP it can get hold of. Bridge seems to cache this information for better performance, at least.






I just made a test with DNG:
  • if the XMP sidecar file is generated ("exported") manually from Bridge, it gets eaten by the DNG file automatically at the first occasion (the XMP content is moved into the DNG file, and then the XMP file is deleted automatically from the disk). This may happen just a second after I exported the XMP file.
  • if the XMP file has been generated by ExifTool, it gets ignored! Which is a no-go, because using 3rd party tools (such as the very powerfull and therefore much-loved ExifTool) is essential for me and probably many others.
Both test results are a desaster!
I'm fine as long I can avoid DNG, i.e. as long as Pentax bodies can produce PEF, but if Pentax will switch over to DNG exclusively one day, I'll have a serious problem. I will have to abandon Bridge completely (probably any Adobe image browser components of any Adobe software), and look out for a capable 3rd party replacement, which offers a handy user interface for tagging images with hierarchical keywords (which rules out GeoSetter, for example).
(sigh)


My wishlist for the future:
  1. All Adobe Software shall offer a mode, where XMP files are treated as persistent metadata originals for any image type (including DNG or JPEG). If an Image file type can host XMP data as well (such as DNG), it shall carry metadata copies only, or alternatively, it shall never be touched at all (as per user choice).
  2. Failing that: Begging Pentax, that PEF will be supported as an 'untouchable' (read-only) output format ongoingly.
  3. Failing that: Begging the "smart guys" in the user community, if someone can program a tool to convert DNG to PEF (only joking, because you would loose some information this way, probably)



Last edited by Frater; 09-16-2013 at 01:47 PM.
09-16-2013, 09:01 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
No, I'm using Photoshop (which means, its Bridge module for browsing photos and managing most metadata).
If you are using PS then you should be able to force the use of XMP files by making DNG files "ready only".

Unlike LR, ACR will then leave the DNG file alone and will create an XMP file for the metadata.
09-17-2013, 09:14 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If you are using PS then you should be able to force the use of XMP files by making DNG files "ready only".
Unlike LR, ACR will then leave the DNG file alone and will create an XMP file for the metadata.
Yep ACR behaves properly! The XMP is left alive and its content is regarded (PS transports applicable metadata stemming from the XMP into the final JPEG file).

The problem is more with Bridge, as the standard metadata editing tool for most PS users. Bridge refuses metadata editing for read-only DNG files! (even if the DNG is accompanied with a writeable XMP sidecar file). Which defeats the DNG-read-only trick. This may be a true software bug though, given that all works so beautyfully with PEF files. Unfortunately there's no point in contacting Adobe about fixing this in a later version, because the current PS CS6, as the last standalone (i.e. non-Creative-Cloud) version, will be the last PS version I'm going to use in my digital photo life.

So, the short term solution is to stick to PEF as long as possible, and if not available any longer in future Pentax bodies, to disuse Bridge as the metadata tagging tool and to look out for some alternative (which allows hierarchical keywords, and conforms well to XMP standards and best practises).

Last edited by Frater; 09-17-2013 at 09:29 AM.
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