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08-14-2014, 03:14 AM   #1
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K5 RAW and Apple Aperture - overblown cyans?

I find when I switch from jpeg to raw in Aperture, the cyan/blues are way too harsh. I can partially correct this by selectively turning down the saturation on the effected colour range, but it is not really a solution. Anyone else suffering from this? I doubt Apple will update the K5 raw converter, so the only solution might be switching to LR :-(

08-14-2014, 04:15 AM   #2
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I always shoot RAW with the K5, and never had this problem in Aperture. Are you sure it's not a monitor calibration problem?
08-14-2014, 04:45 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
I always shoot RAW with the K5, and never had this problem in Aperture. Are you sure it's not a monitor calibration problem?
If it's the monitor, wouldn't it show up on the JPEGs, too?
08-14-2014, 05:19 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
If it's the monitor, wouldn't it show up on the JPEGs, too?
There is certainly a difference in calibration between my laptop and external monitor, but what I am seeing is a general increase of blue when switching between raw and jpeg, and I get this regardless of which monitor I am using. On strong blue/cyan colours, the effect is really noticeable. For example, the Ikea bag covering the front basket of my bike in the attached screen shots - it is not the same blue as the jpeg, by some margin.

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08-14-2014, 06:27 AM   #5
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Well jpeg is a processed raw, and jpegs change the contrast, colours, sharpness, etc. depending on the jpeg settings (press info and adjust them. You can choose jpeg modes and also adjust them individually. Settings like WB, shadow correction, digital filters, etc. also affect the jpeg output)
Jpeg and raw will be different. In fact, some photographers are trying to make their jpegs look like the raw files, but have quite some difficulty with it. They do this, so the preview jpeg would more closely match the raw data. Of course, the raw data itself doesn't look very good - it needs to be post processed, either in-camera (jpeg mode) or via software.
Anyway, I would suggest you check your software's Colour space (sRGB, AdobeRGB, ProRGB - colours can change when converting between them. Its best if in-camera settings match your software settings, as well as your final export setting. sRGB is fine for most uses and is best for web/computer stuff), Camera calibation/colour profile, and maybe even adjust the luminance of individual channels. Once you find something that you think works well, save it and have it automatically applied to all raw files you import.

Edit: And I think the bottom photo is closer to what the Ikea bag actually looks like, at least to my eyes on my monitor

Last edited by Na Horuk; 08-14-2014 at 06:47 AM.
08-14-2014, 07:05 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
Well jpeg is a processed raw, and jpegs change the contrast, colours, sharpness, etc. depending on the jpeg settings (press info and adjust them. You can choose jpeg modes and also adjust them individually. Settings like WB, shadow correction, digital filters, etc. also affect the jpeg output)
Jpeg and raw will be different. In fact, some photographers are trying to make their jpegs look like the raw files, but have quite some difficulty with it. They do this, so the preview jpeg would more closely match the raw data. Of course, the raw data itself doesn't look very good - it needs to be post processed, either in-camera (jpeg mode) or via software.
Anyway, I would suggest you check your software's Colour space (sRGB, AdobeRGB, ProRGB - colours can change when converting between them. Its best if in-camera settings match your software settings, as well as your final export setting. sRGB is fine for most uses and is best for web/computer stuff), Camera calibation/colour profile, and maybe even adjust the luminance of individual channels. Once you find something that you think works well, save it and have it automatically applied to all raw files you import.

Edit: And I think the bottom photo is closer to what the Ikea bag actually looks like, at least to my eyes on my monitor
Thanks Na Horuk,

I'm well aware that there are many reasons why jpeg and raw will be different, and that different raw convertors will render differently. In fact, the default Apple raw conversion is quite close to the camera's own (neutral) settings. The one thing that is not the same is that blue. While in landscapes it looks a bit like a UV haze, where there are strong blues (eg the ikea bag - it really is not as bright as in the raw) they leap out far to saturated. This happens regardless of monitor colour profiles or of colour space. In most cases it is simply a bit annoying but can be ignored, but in some photos it is very prominent.

Of course Adobe's raw converter in Lightroom renders the pictures differently from Aperture, but does not over-saturate the blue channel. It is certainly something that Apple's raw convertor is doing - I'm just surprised that other aperture users don't report the same issue.
08-14-2014, 09:40 AM   #7
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It sounds to me like the issue is one of Aperture and nothing to do with the camera.


A raw file or indeed a jpg or any computer file is a series of numbers not an image. A software engine interprets those numbers and then creates colours from them. If it converts them correctly the image looks correct, if it doesn't you get this effect, where other software renders the image correctly and Aperture doesn't.


Everything you say tells me that the Aperture imaging engine is malfunctioning in some way, this may be a characteristic of its operation and trivial, or it may be a settings or configuration issue and resettable, or it is a software corruption of some kind. Can you correct for it in post, do you even want to have to correct every image for what amounts to a corruption.


The solution is to discover if its a characteristic from other Aperture users. explore the web for configuration settings and issues, discover if its a known issue and patchable with a software patch, all the things you seem to be doing.


At the end of the day if it is an issue for you and proves unfixable, the only solution is to stop using Aperture. If the software is incapable of rendering images correctly, why use it for serious work. The only reason for using a picture editor is because it produces images we want it to. If Aperture cannot do that then dispose of it.
08-14-2014, 10:58 AM   #8
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Yep, I just wanted to list possible culprits. One other thing you can do is try to update your software if there was a change in processes or a silent bugfix
and lol, the Ikea bag is pretty colourful and shiny, at least mine, so I'm not so surprised it would be blown out

08-14-2014, 12:12 PM - 1 Like   #9
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Don't get hung up on colour, I see many people in the digital age only accepting absolute perfection.


Colour film was never correct for colour, and slightly blue Ektachrome or slightly red Kodachrome was never objected to. You chose the film that gave the colours you were happiest with. Nobody ever demanded correct colours. Those colours on colour pictures from 1930 to 2000 were never true colours whatever film stock was used, and nobody cares.


These days many photographers see a faithfully reproduced image with absolutely correct colours, and they then over saturate to get that pop they want. I see HDR producing ridiculous images oversaturated grim and only worth putting in the trash. Having demanded that cameras produce absolutely accurate colours and having made the manufacturers give them that they now decide they don't want correct colours after all. Stop worrying about colour correctness so much.


The colours in your images look fine even though theyr different in each shot theyr a damn sight closer than kodacolour kodachrome ektachrome velvia or any of them ever were and in 3 months or 6 months or a year nobody will care, they will assume whatever colours they see in the image were the real colours.
08-14-2014, 12:52 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by frstep Quote
There is certainly a difference in calibration between my laptop and external monitor, but what I am seeing is a general increase of blue when switching between raw and jpeg, and I get this regardless of which monitor I am using. On strong blue/cyan colours, the effect is really noticeable. For example, the Ikea bag covering the front basket of my bike in the attached screen shots - it is not the same blue as the jpeg, by some margin.
Yes, the blues are a little different but can you tell us which photo looks like the closest representation of the bag itself? Also, the yellows are a little different, too. I struggle with Pentax's JPEG engine causing yellows to look a bit on the green side and sometimes too bright as well.
08-14-2014, 02:13 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
It sounds to me like the issue is one of Aperture and nothing to do with the camera.
Indeed it is. And I have asked on Aperture forums too. Maybe not too make K5 users out there using Aperture. And I do like Aperture, and it is only a niggle, which is why (for the moment) I have stuck with Aperture.

---------- Post added 08-14-14 at 10:16 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
Don't get hung up on colour, I see many people in the digital age only accepting absolute perfection.
Good point. However, in the case of the blue issue I have, occasionally it is distractingly "hot" compared to the rest of the photo, at which point I have to make adjustments that I'd rather not have to do.

---------- Post added 08-14-14 at 10:20 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Yes, the blues are a little different but can you tell us which photo looks like the closest representation of the bag itself? Also, the yellows are a little different, too. I struggle with Pentax's JPEG engine causing yellows to look a bit on the green side and sometimes too bright as well.
I really like the balance of the jpegs the K5 produces (on neutral setting) - I've never been a fan of cameras that over saturate to give photos "pop", and most of the time (and with my favourite lenses) the images the K5 give me a colour balance that I feel is pretty faithful. Maybe the example I posted is not the most extreme - in some photos blue clothing or items look like they have been photoshopped in!
08-14-2014, 03:09 PM   #12
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Ive had a look and I don't see what you see.


I have examined the two images and limited testing of the separated colours shows the blue channel to be identical on both images, and the green channel to be identical on both images, but the red channel is significantly reduced in the raw image in that blue bag, compared to the jpg image in the same area. I estimate a 25% reduction in red content in this one area and this explains the brighter blue you are seeing in the raw image. There are other areas that also show red reduction in the raw image, the grey area adjacent to the bag for example. Other areas however don't show this red reduction.


I am a loss to explain why its affecting some areas in the image but not others. Further testing is needed.


Focus your search not on blue sensitivity but red sensitivity as its the red channel that shows a difference.
08-14-2014, 03:23 PM   #13
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Every once in awhile my K5 will shoot an wildly cyan image. No idea what causes it and since it is a very rare experience I just live with it.
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