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12-02-2014, 06:13 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Brooke Meyer Quote
Again I bring this example of what I'm referring to (many more on Brooke's Gallery). I doubt many shadow recover was used, if any...

12-02-2014, 06:31 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by adwb Quote
My experience is that using spot to lift shadow areas works well but using spot to set the exposure for high lights is not always so successful
I would agree. Spot metering is a fairly specialized tool and unless used in M mode or with active attention to exposure compensation is not very useful.


Steve

---------- Post added 12-02-14 at 05:34 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
I was taught to expose for the highlights and have encountered little complications, or situations where I would require more than the built-in meter (exposure "needle").
Would you care to elaborate on how you use spot metering to do that? The spot meter without some form of exposure compensation will meter the region you choose to middle gray...not exactly the same as ETTR. I thought you understood that when I wrote my original comment. You can use it for ETTR, but only by metering the brightest region of the frame and applying +3 stops of EC.

In other words...You use spot metering to place exposure for a specific region of the frame.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 12-02-2014 at 06:36 PM.
12-02-2014, 07:49 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote

...will meter the region you choose to middle gray...


Steve
And only with a complete understanding of this, and knowing how to properly expose will you achieve such results. I'm not referring to exposure-compensation, but the underlying subjectivity of the camera's meter towards 18% grey, can we balance accordingly (either of the three parameters, ISO, ss, or aperture), but doing it manually and not relying on the meter more than to let us know where we want our highlights, which is different than protecting the highlights (to sum up the "ETTR" notion). And take another look at the image above, the sensor does the rest...
12-02-2014, 10:05 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
not relying on the meter more than to let us know where we want our highlights,
Sorry, but I am still confused about how spot metering is being used by you.

If you spot meter the tiny 3% 'patch' of the scene (in the dead centre of the viewfinder, normally) where your highlights are, the remaining 97% of the image will be exposed according to what the meter reading of that tiny 3% 'patch' was. And, most likely, the whole image will thus be severely underexposed.

Pic related - the very small area of the scene spot metering works with on the K-5/ K-5IIs:



The only way I can figure out what you might be doing is that perhaps you are treating the camera like an old fashioned spot EV meter to manually meter several areas of the scene one by one, for example, in order to make your own balanced exposure assessment, and then you manually set aperture and shutter speed based on your exposure calculations. Seems a lot of work, particularly for moving subjects or scenes with dynamic lighting.


Last edited by rawr; 12-02-2014 at 10:10 PM.
12-03-2014, 07:37 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Sorry, but I am still confused about how spot metering is being used by you.

If you spot meter the tiny 3% 'patch' of the scene (in the dead centre of the viewfinder, normally) where your highlights are, the remaining 97% of the image will be exposed according to what the meter reading of that tiny 3% 'patch' was. And, most likely, the whole image will thus be severely underexposed.
Depending on the dynamic range of the sensor, yes. With better sensors, not so much...
I don't mind deep(er) shadows...
12-03-2014, 07:54 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
And take another look at the image above, the sensor does the rest...
The sensor does what it does. ETTR is an attempt to maximize data to the sensor and requires active intervention to do so. Protecting highlights is not the same as ETTR and has nothing to do with meter accuracy.

Your original question was regarding the accuracy of spot metering. The answer is that the spot meter pattern is quite accurate and will return a middle value consistently.

Back to ETTR...Spot metering is a poor tool for doing so unless you know what you are doing and knowing what you are doing involves manually compensated for metering and careful selection of the portion of the frame to meter. Matrix metering with exposure comp is a better approach for ETTR. I would suggest spending some time with a hand-held meter and consulting a book on exposure. The book linked below is the standard:

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Exposure-3rd-Photographs-Camera/dp/0817439390


Steve

---------- Post added 12-03-14 at 06:57 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Sorry, but I am still confused about how spot metering is being used by you.
I too was hoping he would share his workflow. In any case, if good photos are being produced, that is the important thing


Steve
12-03-2014, 08:15 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The sensor does what it does. ETTR is an attempt to maximize data to the sensor and requires active intervention to do so. Protecting highlights is not the same as ETTR and has nothing to do with meter accuracy.

Your original question was regarding the accuracy of spot metering. The answer is that the spot meter pattern is quite accurate and will return a middle value consistently.

Back to ETTR...Spot metering is a poor tool for doing so unless you know what you are doing and knowing what you are doing involves manually compensated for metering and careful selection of the portion of the frame to meter. Matrix metering with exposure comp is a better approach for ETTR. I would suggest spending some time with a hand-held meter and consulting a book on exposure. The book linked below is the standard:

Understanding Exposure, 3rd Edition: How to Shoot Great Photographs with Any Camera: Bryan Peterson: 0884798534707: Amazon.com: Books


Steve

---------- Post added 12-03-14 at 06:57 AM ----------



I too was hoping he would share his workflow. In any case, if good photos are being produced, that is the important thing


Steve
I believe I should say again that my approach is not to expose for the right, but expose for the highlights. Post production is reduced to a minimum, from my part. ETTR implies a deliberate under-exposure, with the intent of a recovery done in post production. Exposing for the highlights, implies that the exposure is correct (or at least very close), making sure that the part we decide it's going to be the "spot" - bride's face, dress, the white part of the flower, the diamond on the ring, etc. - with little to no corrections left to be made in post, other than some sharpening, or some local brush adjustments if that's the case. Sometimes even pulling down the shadows some more...

---------- Post added 12-03-14 at 08:23 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote

...Your original question was regarding the accuracy of spot metering. The answer is that the spot meter pattern is quite accurate and will return a middle value consistently...
Thank you. This is what's important. We each have our workflow, and we rely on our tools to achieve the results we expect. It's not important how we get there, what's important is what we get...
12-03-2014, 08:37 AM   #23
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Spot metering is very useful when shooting anything that has a background with an extremely different amount of brightness than the subject.

For example, squirrels or birds in a tree with a full bright sky behind them. The evaluative meter will underexpose everything except the sky 100% of the time. And the center weighted meter does the same thing although not quite as bad. Conversely, in the case of a well light object in front of a dark background, the evaluative meter will overexpose the subject in the foreground significantly while using spot metering will allow you to get the thing you care about to be correctly exposed.

Exposing to the right is not at all related to this.

12-03-2014, 08:51 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Homo_erectus Quote
Spot metering is very useful when shooting anything that has a background with an extremely different amount of brightness than the subject.

For example, squirrels or birds in a tree with a full bright sky behind them. The evaluative meter will underexpose everything except the sky 100% of the time. And the center weighted meter does the same thing although not quite as bad. Conversely, in the case of a well light object in front of a dark background, the evaluative meter will overexpose the subject in the foreground significantly while using spot metering will allow you to get the thing you care about to be correctly exposed.

Exposing to the right is not at all related to this.
My point exactly. Thank you. Spot on (pardon the pun )...
12-03-2014, 08:55 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
ETTR implies a deliberate under-exposure, with the intent of a recovery done in post production.
Other way around. ETTR is often deliberate overexposure with the intent of providing additional signal (data) to shadows while being aware of and taking steps to avoid clipping in the highlights. In film photography this was usually done by exposing for the shadows and modifying development to retain detail in the highlights. With digital, this is much more difficult particularly at lower bit-depths.


Steve
12-03-2014, 09:06 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Other way around. ETTR is often deliberate overexposure with the intent of providing additional signal (data) to shadows while being aware of and taking steps to avoid clipping in the highlights. In film photography this was usually done by exposing for the shadows and modifying development to retain detail in the highlights. With digital, this is much more difficult particularly at lower bit-depths.


Steve
Hehehe... This shows what I really care, or what little attention gave it...
12-03-2014, 09:22 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
My point exactly. Thank you. Spot on (pardon the pun )...
Ha! That's what my girl friend calls a "dad joke". Happy to help.
12-03-2014, 10:39 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
Hehehe... This shows what I really care, or what little attention gave it...
Yep...good luck on your camera purchase. I am sure that it will perform according to the care that is dedicated to its operation.


Steve
12-03-2014, 11:02 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Yep...good luck on your camera purchase. I am sure that it will perform according to the care that is dedicated to its operation.


Steve
Thank you.
For what I've seen (images) and read in forums, reviews and so forth, I truly believe this is the right move for me, in this moment, and have little doubts that the used K-5 II I'm about to start using soon, will deliver, after my main question mark had been answered by Brooke Meyer in post #10, posting an image where it showed the sensor delivering a gorgeous tonality and tonal gradation in the darker parts, with wonderful clarity. It was who has probably understood the perhaps somewhat misleading (English is not my first language ) thread title.
12-03-2014, 08:18 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote

...Spot metering is a fairly specialized tool and unless used in M mode or with active attention to exposure compensation is not very useful...

...without some form of exposure compensation will meter the region you choose to middle gray...

...not exactly the same as ETTR...

In other words...You use spot metering to place exposure for a specific region of the frame.


Steve
Yes, but why leave how much to compensate to the camera?

Exactly and the whole purpose of this thread...

Do not know how to use it.

Yes, then it's up to the sensor's ability of dealing with the shadows.
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