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05-31-2016, 10:06 AM   #31
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Just thought I would also share: Pentaxian's Photos - ViewBug.com, just to prove I can get some images right.

05-31-2016, 10:12 AM   #32
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I only looked at the first one and did the conversion and a little processing.

I'm not a purist or overly particular, so the way it turned out was fine for me. Unless noise is excessive to the point it ruins the message, I don't find it offensive. Maybe you are a lot more particular than me.......as old Norm always says, you can get what you want if you are willing to spend the cash for it. I wouldn't spend a dime to get better than that one, personally.

Someone with better processing skills could most likely do better...I used a 10 year old Elements Raw converter.

Meanwhile the Canon and Nikon guys were in some little Cafe trying to dry out their cameras.......

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Regards!
05-31-2016, 10:30 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I only looked at the first one and did the conversion and a little processing.

I'm not a purist or overly particular, so the way it turned out was fine for me. Unless noise is excessive to the point it ruins the message, I don't find it offensive. Maybe you are a lot more particular than me.......as old Norm always says, you can get what you want if you are willing to spend the cash for it. I wouldn't spend a dime to get better than that one, personally.

Someone with better processing skills could most likely do better...I used a 10 year old Elements Raw converter.

Meanwhile the Canon and Nikon guys were in some little Cafe trying to dry out their cameras.......

Attachment 312269

Regards!
Its funny you should mention the cafe, they all had plastic bags over their cameras

I will be honest and say the noise was one of the problems for me, not being overly particular but as I say when I compare it to the ones coming from some of the others they had no noise in theirs. I am trying to get some thoughts / help from them but it has to be remember Canon / Nikon helping Pentax........
05-31-2016, 10:43 AM   #34
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All you need is a sturdy tripod (first) and some more practice on night photography! That's what I'm thinking seeing your images...

As already told fast glass is helpful too, but cost more than my first two recommendations!

I just saw you have the tripod! So just practice! Did you see the Cononikon pics on a screen or just on the camera monitor?


Last edited by redpit; 05-31-2016 at 10:49 AM.
05-31-2016, 10:57 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mash4077 Quote
but as I say when I compare it to the ones coming from some of the others they had no noise in theirs.
We'd have to see theirs for comparison.....and what lens they used and the processing etc.......so many factors that are usually not the camera. It is why we often see people switch brands only to find they now do worse than ever.....it's those "so many factors" that is most often where gains can me made.

Regards!

Here is a neat trick if you are not particular like I'm not.....just for fun.....

Shoot some birdies out of range with a fast lens....Tamron 70-200 2.8
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Crop out a tiny portion and see what you can get?
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Use a little bigger crop and it's not half bad!


Lots of ways to skin a cat...if you are not too particular about cats!
05-31-2016, 11:02 AM   #36
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The ones of the red buses all seem like they just could use more depth-of-field. Though 02 looks like it might be not be focused on the subject -- maybe back-focused -- it gets sharper as you travel back along the side of the bus. 05 probably would have benefitted from having shake reduction turned on (I generally have that on for all my hand-held photos). 04 looks pretty good.

I tried to see what focus points were recorded as being in focus in your photos (from the exif data), but I can't see that for some reason.

Lee
05-31-2016, 11:14 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by redpit Quote
All you need is a sturdy tripod (first) and some more practice on night photography! That's what I'm thinking seeing your images...

As already told fast glass is helpful too, but cost more than my first two recommendations!

I just saw you have the tripod! So just practice! Did you see the Cononikon pics on a screen or just on the camera monitor?
They were on screen, both Facebook and Flickr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jason15c/26269805492/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jason15c/26362181415/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24287492@N02/26281252666/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24287492@N02/26034334820/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nick_halling/26122074742/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nick_halling/25935148000/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nick_halling/25616551903/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68415577@N03/25608298853/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68415577@N03/25608847213/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68415577@N03/25606987564/in/pool-2709264@N23/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68415577@N03/26211435865/in/pool-2709264@N23/

---------- Post added 05-31-16 at 11:18 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
The ones of the red buses all seem like they just could use more depth-of-field. Though 02 looks like it might be not be focused on the subject -- maybe back-focused -- it gets sharper as you travel back along the side of the bus. 05 probably would have benefitted from having shake reduction turned on (I generally have that on for all my hand-held photos). 04 looks pretty good.

I tried to see what focus points were recorded as being in focus in your photos (from the exif data), but I can't see that for some reason.

Lee
Thanks Lee, Image 05 was on a Tripod and SR was actually turned on.

Trying to remember where I focused on the 04 image and I think it was close to or on the front of the right hand bus.
05-31-2016, 12:28 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mash4077 Quote
Continued thanks for all the help and feedback, as mentioned earlier I have picked out five images that I believe to be failures for one reason or several.

These are all still in DNG format and are straight out of the camera so file size accordingly.

01 - Pentax-DA 35mm f2.4 @ ISO 3200, 1/60 sec
02 - Pentax-DA 50mm f1.8 @ ISO 3200, 1/80 sec
03 - Pentax-DA 35mm f2.4 @ ISO 3200, 1/80 sec
04 - Pentax-DA 50mm f1.8 @ ISO 3200, 1/100 sec
05 - Pentax-DA 35mm f2.4 @ ISO 400, 1/20 sec (Tripod)

The first four I believe have considerable noise in them.

Any and all feedback gratefully received, I am happy and expecting criticism but if you can give pointers that would be great as these are the type of shoots I enjoy and have another bus one lined up for September which I will be using a tripod for next time.
First you never mentioned owning these in the original post so some of the advice given may not be applicable. These lenses are fast and while not zooms they exceed the f/2.8 zoom aperture speeds we were recommending.

Next (again I have not yet looked) what is the post processing you are doing? These are the straight DNG files which gives us the option to tinker but tells us very little about how you process them.

My initial observation is that you shot with pretty high shutter speeds for night shots. 1/80 @ f/2.5 on the 2nd picture, 1/60th @ f/2.4 on the first I think. Why so high - was there movement in the scene you needed to freeze in all cases? I suspect in the first one there were moving cars but you probably didn't want them in the scene in any case as they are anachronistic.

Lighting is hash and you have a number of harsh lights in the compositions that make the camera work pretty hard to try to hold the scene. Your white balance appears off to me - was this shot auto? In post you can easily correct.

Looking at the shots you liked one thing is clear the composition of those shots is better than the shots you took at least in some cases. There are no modern cars captured and the street lamps in frame are more period etc. Oddly you put forth both cool modern looking images and nostalgic old film looks - I'm not sure which you wanted from your results. Lastly I noticed that these are all reduced resolution flickr shots. The pixel peeping noise you see may disappear if you create reduced resolution jpgs and apply good noise reduction.

Saying all that is easy... now for some real fun. Here are a couple of your shots remastered - I'm not a great Post Processor - others can do better I suspect but at least this should give you some idea how manipulated things can get.

Oh and shake reduction should be OFF when using a tripod. You can do this by setting the setting specifically or by enabling the 2 second self timer.

Attached Images
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-5 II s  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-5 II s  Photo 
05-31-2016, 12:47 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
First you never mentioned owning these in the original post so some of the advice given may not be applicable. These lenses are fast and while not zooms they exceed the f/2.8 zoom aperture speeds we were recommending.

My initial observation is that you shot with pretty high shutter speeds for night shots. 1/80 @ f/2.5 on the 2nd picture, 1/60th @ f/2.4 on the first I think. Why so high - was there movement in the scene you needed to freeze in all cases? I suspect in the first one there were moving cars but you probably didn't want them in the scene in any case as they are anachronistic.
Thanks, I did mention in my original post that I had a 35 & 50mm lens but obviously like the other lens did not mention the f-stop range.

I thought the rule of thumb was: 1/(focal length x crop factor) for the shutter speed, so in the case of the 50mm lens then 1/75 as the minimum shutter speed and for the 35mm then 1/52.5
05-31-2016, 01:05 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mash4077 Quote
Thanks, I did mention in my original post that I had a 35 & 50mm lens but obviously like the other lens did not mention the f-stop range.

I thought the rule of thumb was: 1/(focal length x crop factor) for the shutter speed, so in the case of the 50mm lens then 1/75 as the minimum shutter speed and for the 35mm then 1/52.5
First - you have a system with shake reduction. Let us assume a mere 2 stops for this exercise but it should be more.

If you needed 1/75th second in theory, then cut that in half twice to get two stops, roughly 1/20th at worst.
If you needed 1/52.5th second - then 1/10 or so should be sufficient.

None of this helps if the subjects are moving - but that's another question all together.

I'm sorry I missed that you mentioned the 35/50 - I think we all saw the list of zooms and thought you had shot with those. The advice to get a 17-50 f/2.8 to improve things isn't valid if you shot with the 35 and 50 that are faster and still had issues. Granted a zoom will be more flexible - so once you get the hang of shooting these shots with the 34/50 combo you could take advantage of the 17-50 - does that make sense?

---------- Post added 05-31-16 at 04:18 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Mash4077 Quote
Its funny you should mention the cafe, they all had plastic bags over their cameras

I will be honest and say the noise was one of the problems for me, not being overly particular but as I say when I compare it to the ones coming from some of the others they had no noise in theirs. I am trying to get some thoughts / help from them but it has to be remember Canon / Nikon helping Pentax........
Unless one of them gives you his RAW file I'm not sure if you can say if the noise is better or worse. The higher end full frame cameras should give better low noise images but at the resolutions posted on flickr they could just be downsampling them and cleaning them up that way. APSC Nikon and Canon cameras should not blow away your K-5iis in any way other than perhaps autofocus. They may have higher resolution like the K-3 does but this actually will reduce low light performance and increase noise since the pixel density goes up. (less light per pixel = more noise...)

So if you want crazy low NOISE a Pentax K-1 and fast lenses and a tripod and some practice with post processing. If you want to improve by switching brands you can but I don't think at a cost that is not significantly higher. I think mostly you need to work on technique and hone that before changing equipment.

Last edited by UncleVanya; 06-01-2016 at 05:57 AM.
05-31-2016, 01:40 PM   #41
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Yes, that is a rule of thumb, but I don't like it. It originates from 35mm film days, where motion blur was much more accepted then in modern pixelpeeping times. For high megapixel digital cameras I would increase that speed with a factor 2-8. But it also originates from a time without shake reduction, SR. The newest cameras claim a SR effectiveness of up to 5 stops. So that should account for a 32x factor in the slower direction. But that effectiveness varies and are reduced by the mirror and shutter shake at speeds around 1/50s - 1/100s. It also have limitations in focal lengths (that probably are connected to shutter speeds). Camera shake is also extremely variable. One Pentaxian might be a surgeon or sniper shooter, while another may have drunk too much espresso or just freezing in the wind. To sum it up, I don't quite like that rule because it depends on so much. It certainly don't deserve decimals. I think it might be a better approach to do some test shots and magnify them to see what works and not for different situations.
06-01-2016, 04:31 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by kh1234567890 Quote
But be careful to keep SR lock while you reframe. I am one of those 95%
Good point!
06-01-2016, 05:18 AM   #43
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Mash4077.....After going over this thread, and looking at the information presented, I don't see where your equipment has failed you, it seems very adequate.
The one thing not really mentioned is that those Canon & Nikon shooters may just have better skills than you. I don't say this in a offending manner, it happens to me all the time. Seems that you need more practice and some of the information here can surely help too.

I have the same gear as many, yet very often find they use their gear to achieve much better results. I think that may be the case in your situation too? You are doing the right thing by asking questions and looking for answers here, and no doubt with your attitude and desire to excel.....you will!

Best Regards!
06-01-2016, 03:00 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Mash4077.....After going over this thread, and looking at the information presented, I don't see where your equipment has failed you, it seems very adequate.
The one thing not really mentioned is that those Canon & Nikon shooters may just have better skills than you. I don't say this in a offending manner, it happens to me all the time. Seems that you need more practice and some of the information here can surely help too.

I have the same gear as many, yet very often find they use their gear to achieve much better results. I think that may be the case in your situation too? You are doing the right thing by asking questions and looking for answers here, and no doubt with your attitude and desire to excel.....you will!

Best Regards!
Please don't worry, I would be the first in line to say that they certainly have better skills than me and that there is so much for me to learn. I have only been off AUTO for a couple of years whereas I know alot of the guys on these shoots have been doing it for 10,20,30 years etc. The information here is very helpful and I will be spending some time going through the rest of the forum and potentially asking the odd question or few.

Having sat and thought about two of the events I have been on (Buses & Trains) one of the frustrating things, apart from the challenge of getting the right settings, was the juggling of lenses etc. The buses was by far not a dry night and I did have the comment or two in the rain from the Canon and Nikon crowd! Trying to always be in the right position with the lens you have on can often be a pain or even non-starter depending on location etc and short of having the other lens in the pocket and then switching which when it is raining is not the best idea in the world. The museum shoot, whilst I had my bag with me finding somewhere to perch and change lens or move into the right position again has its downsides, plus there were many times when 35mm was not wide enough. So for no other reason than pure convenience and flexibility point of view I think I will invest in the Sigma 18-50 f2.8. Having spoken with SRS Microsystems who import all the Pentax gear to the UK they are saying that whilst not officially discontinued they are hearing the hints of "well it is in short supply" etc and with all websites selling it for something close to £400 off at the minute I think I would be silly not to bite the bullet in the same way I did with the Sigma 150-500 last year before they disappeared from the shelves. At the end of the day I do not think it will be a waste of money or a false investment and I know that it will not solve my problems as most are obviously knowledge / experience related.

---------- Post added 06-01-16 at 03:16 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by kh1234567890 Quote
But be careful to keep SR lock while you reframe. I am one of those 95%
Ok, question here. I have / am working out how to focus lock whilst re framing. How do you Shake Reduction lock whilst re framing?
06-01-2016, 04:30 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mash4077 Quote
Ok, question here. I have / am working out how to focus lock whilst re framing. How do you Shake Reduction lock whilst re framing?
I just focus lock on the subject and slightly move the camera to the frame position I want and snap....takes only a second. There may be other ways but I've never need them. Works fine for me.......Shot this one a little earlier and recomposed in that manner. This turned out a little weird.....but I kinda like it!


Before the K1 I would zone focus on the tree, recompose and shoot the bird. Now the Bigma will focus directly on the bird without recomposing.

You seem dedicated to your goals, which is commendable. You keep at it and stay with Pentax and plenty of people here will help you all you need. I am not much qualified myself, but plenty here are. If you ever want to shoot renegade squirrels...I'm your man!

Beat Regards!
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