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09-16-2011, 12:09 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by GrinMode Quote
and if the camera cannot AF, it's the photographer's fault he/she cannot cope with the small pentamirror viewfinder.

yes there's the magnifier. too bad it doesn't make the vf any brighter
The pentamirror was there, in the camera, even before someone purchased it. It didn't sneak in at night at some point. Someone who needs a pentaprism will simply buy a body featuring it. It's a nonsense to complain about something one has KNOWINGLY bought.
Besides, I have K-r since last February. Never seen ANY front/back focus issues, even in strange lights. Just like other millions users.
Moreover, since noone has burned PENTAX on one's limbs, nobody is forced to keep something he/she dislikes. Maybe he/she will like more some canikon cheap-plastic crap.

09-16-2011, 07:42 AM   #77
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Any new K-r owners who are unhappy with their purchase are very unlikely to find a sympathetic ear on this forum at this time. The K-r is almost a year old now. Most of us have who were let down by the K-r and/or Pentax have already gotten rid of the camera and moved on. This forum is now a "fanboys only" zone.
09-16-2011, 08:58 AM   #78
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I wouldn't go that far. The key point is that when someone comes on here unhappy about something, they need to be willing to accept help when offered. It also helps if they ask for help rather than just whine and complain about how "horrible their K-r is" or how "my K-r can't do X".

I think this forum is Very helpful to unhappy people who are actually looking for a fix, workaround or the knowledge necessary to get past whatever they're stuck on.
09-16-2011, 09:19 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by abcdave Quote
Any new K-r owners who are unhappy with their purchase are very unlikely to find a sympathetic ear on this forum at this time. The K-r is almost a year old now. Most of us have who were let down by the K-r and/or Pentax have already gotten rid of the camera and moved on. This forum is now a "fanboys only" zone.
Seems a broad statement if I may say so. I totally understand and sympathize with your anger and I'd feel let down were I in your position as well. But, I suspect everyone here has had gear issues of some variety - be they major or minor. I know I have. Made me mad as hell. But, I've returned and/or swapped products based on that. The label fanboys is a bit immature and derogatory. By and large this forum isn't made up of uncritical sycophants, but more of people who try and make the most of what they've got, even when and if it's not ideal... which it never is

09-16-2011, 10:39 AM - 1 Like   #80
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Hi All - first post on this forum!

I've read this thread with some interest having just purchased a KR - obviously slightly concerned about the reported FF issue.

Conducted a major test last night and could honestly not re-create the issue - try as I might. Dark room, low energy bulbs, halogen lamps, a degree of natural light (fading) - plus combinations thereof...focus was true. Note: using a Sigma 17-70, auto WB and single point AF-C on P mode (iso800). Some of the results were pants but a 645 wouldn't have faired any better!

Also tried a powerful LED torch as a back light - again true focus.

Hmm

I'd be very interested to hear from other "new" KR users who can or cannot replicate the FF issue.

I guess it's possible that Pentax have fixed the issue on later models?

It seems that a firmware upgrade won't fix the issue (or it would have happened??) so if I'm right it maybe that there was (is) a mechanical, sensor problem.

When I loose the will to live again I'll conduct some more tests to see if I can get the FF issue to replicate on my KR - until then....I think its absolutely super!
09-16-2011, 11:42 AM   #81
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The tungsten ff issue is more (only?) apparent when using a fast lens. It's supposed to be obvious at maybe f/1.4-2, whereas with the increased depth of field granted by the slower kit zooms and such, it shouldn't be an issue. This is why I tend to think that a lot of people who claim to have this issue, but only have the kit 18-55 (for example), are actually having other problems relating to camera shake or poorly chosen auto mode settings. I know on my K-r the auto mode tends to force any lens wide open most of the time, even when it's totally unnecessary and undesirable, and I can see how beginners would have more trouble nailing focus with that, and the other settings it prefers.

I'm not saying the issue doesn't exist on some copies of the K-r, but I am saying (for about the 100th time ) that it's not as common as people think, and the K-r is often wrongly blamed for it entirely (many posts claim to have this issue in MF mode, or Live View, both of which are completely unaffected by the very nature of the issue).
09-16-2011, 12:31 PM - 1 Like   #82
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What the heck. If there is nobody else around to validate the experiences of the new K-r owners, then it may as well be me.

QuoteOriginally posted by Philoslothical Quote
This is why I tend to think that a lot of people who claim to have this issue, but only have the kit 18-55 (for example), are actually having other problems relating to camera shake or poorly chosen auto mode settings. I know on my K-r the auto mode tends to force any lens wide open most of the time, even when it's totally unnecessary and undesirable, and I can see how beginners would have more trouble nailing focus with that, and the other settings it prefers.

I'm not saying the issue doesn't exist on some copies of the K-r, but I am saying (for about the 100th time ) that it's not as common as people think, and the K-r is often wrongly blamed for it entirely (many posts claim to have this issue in MF mode, or Live View, both of which are completely unaffected by the very nature of the issue).

I completely agree that if someone is perceiving the ff problem with their kit lens or in live view, then something else is wrong.
These owners should be open to feedback and not blame the camera.

I completely disagree that the problem is isolated to a few copies of the K-r. The very fact that some do and some don't is a evidence of a broader issue around QA. I think ff affects a vast majority of K-r, but people will not realize it until they are shooting in light of a certain kelvin with a shallow DoF. Those who never shoot in reddish light will never experience the problem even if the camera may indeed have the problem. Those with slow lenses will never experience the problem although their camera may indeed have the problem. Hell, I'll even go further and say that some people's standards are so low that they don't even know ff when they see it!

Below is one of the best visual representations I could find. The image shows two brackets for f5.6 & f11. f3.5 will be even more slim, but have a relatively deeper DoF than f2.8 or faster. If you are shooting at or faster than f2.8 that bracket will be very slim - almost as slim as the orange bar. Now Imagine you move the diagrammed focus brackets forward, even by the smallest amount. Your subject is still within the focus sweet spot @ f5.6 & f11, but that orange bar which represents the Dof of a fast lens has left the subject and you are now out of focus. This is how we can both have a problem and not have a problem at the exact same time. The lucky ones can adjust the camera enough to compensate.

09-16-2011, 12:58 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
The label fanboys is a bit immature and derogatory. By and large this forum isn't made up of uncritical sycophants, but more of people who try and make the most of what they've got, even when and if it's not ideal... which it never is
Nass, out of respect for the forum, I have been silent on the topic ever since I cashed out. Then I read _lyan_'s clearly derogatory response to FoggyDay, "Bad photos come from bad photographer." - it pissed me off. It is like handing Tiger Woods a bent golf club, then telling him he is a bad golf player because he is struggling to make par. I'm sure others can golf just fine with a bent club - you just have to make the most of what you got.

What FoggyDay said is completely valid. His disposable outperformed his K-r. That is an objective statement which can be measured should we be provided samples from both sets. He clearly has a problem, and if so, he deserves to have it validated (since Pentax clearly won't do it). The response he got was fanboy in nature and (as far as I'm concerned) other forum members are almost as guilty to let such a statement stand in the light of such a well documented problem.

Yeah, ok. What I said was overly broad and a bit harsh. We'll all just have to make the most of it. ...and I'll just make the most of being called immature.

09-16-2011, 01:21 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by abcdave Quote
Nass, out of respect for the forum, I have been silent on the topic ever since I cashed out. Then I read _lyan_'s clearly derogatory response to FoggyDay, "Bad photos come from bad photographer." - it pissed me off. It is like handing Tiger Woods a bent golf club, then telling him he is a bad golf player because he is struggling to make par. I'm sure others can golf just fine with a bent club - you just have to make the most of what you got.

What FoggyDay said is completely valid. His disposable outperformed his K-r. That is an objective statement which can be measured should we be provided samples from both sets. He clearly has a problem, and if so, he deserves to have it validated (since Pentax clearly won't do it). The response he got was fanboy in nature and (as far as I'm concerned) other forum members are almost as guilty to let such a statement stand in the light of such a well documented problem.

Yeah, ok. What I said was overly broad and a bit harsh. We'll all just have to make the most of it. ...and I'll just make the most of being called immature.
Maybe you should read how FoggyDay describes his use of his K-r. Maybe you will understand my answer. Get a look here:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-r-forum/158917-kr-my-rrrrrrs.html

As I said, bad photos come from bad photographers. Even if your box-for-taking-photos doesn't work as it should in some situations, there are PLENTY of situations where it works fine, since we're talking about FF under tungsten light. But our "friend" here is saying something different.
Here is a summary of k-r situation:

1- most of them work fine
2- some of them have issues in tungsten light
3- some users don't know how to use their camera and blame the camera instead of themselves... because they all are better photographers then Cartier Bresson.

Solution:

1- no problem to solve
2- warranty repair; hopefully go to point 1- / return the camera and be happy with the new one
3- sell the camera, stop pissing serious people on forums, go buy a canikon and whine on canikon forums because the camera can't make coffee.

Based on what he says, our "great 40 years photographer" seems to stay at point 3- . So, he's a crappy photographer, or a troll, or both.
Other people probably have real issues, and I haven't said anything about them. On the other side, as Nass pointed out, you are judging an entire community, on what bases? My sentence, you said, about this great misunderstood photographer. Even if you were right about me (the bad, ugly fanboy), there are thousand of users here, not just me.
I suggest you to think again about your previous statement.

As for me... fanboy? I'll be a fanboy when Pentax will ask me to be one, paying me for that. I'm only a happy customer, till now. Tomorrow I could be very angry, who knows?

Last edited by _lyan_; 09-16-2011 at 01:28 PM.
09-16-2011, 01:24 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by abcdave Quote
Then I read _lyan_'s clearly derogatory response to FoggyDay, "Bad photos come from bad photographer." - it pissed me off.
FoggyDay wasn't complaining about the ff issue. He was complaining about not knowing how to use his camera, and blaming the ff issue for it. A reminder of what he actually wrote:

QuoteOriginally posted by foggyday Quote
In bright light with the standard lense it's not bad. low light unless the subject is stationary above 800 iso then it is rubish. any of the canon compacts seem to knock spots off it. Using my old m zoom 1;45 8mm-200mm in reasonable light has been fun with some good results however my P30 and my Spotmatic 500 give far better results. I thought that the Kr on full auto just point and press mode would give very good snap style photos well it doesn't and I will not recomend this camera at all.
He's complaining that he can't hold the camera steady. He's complaining here about the performance of manual lenses. He's complaining that auto mode isn't telepathic. He makes no mention of having a front focus issue with a fast lens.

Based on that set of problems I tried to point him to some beginner material, as he also made no mention of having prior experience with anything but P&S, and he came back mouthing off and calling me names (which posts have since been deleted, either by him or a mod, did you happen to read those before you got pissed off?)

He didn't want help, he wanted an audience to cry in front of. That, or he was just trolling from the beginning, another user that's pissed off and made a new account for this. Which it is, I don't know nor much care. He got exactly the response he deserved, and that barb that pissed you off was posted After the whole thread, when people already knew what kind of user they were dealing with.

Last edited by Philoslothical; 09-16-2011 at 01:30 PM.
09-16-2011, 10:20 PM   #86
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Context is everything, of course...

Me, I'm still at #2, eight months after finding out why my indoors photos weren't correctly focused. Probably can make due without my camera for a bit now that the summer's over and the days of ample natural light are done. I should send it in while there are still months rather than just a few weeks until Christmas!
09-16-2011, 10:22 PM   #87
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...and have them clean the e-dial while they're at it.
09-17-2011, 12:22 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by torpesco Quote
...and have them clean the e-dial while they're at it.
good point

I hope your camera come back, 100%working, a.s.a.p.!
They're quite fast here in Italy (unless they need odd pieces from the other side of the world)
09-17-2011, 03:09 AM - 1 Like   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by _lyan_ Quote
The pentamirror was there, in the camera, even before someone purchased it. It didn't sneak in at night at some point. Someone who needs a pentaprism will simply buy a body featuring it. It's a nonsense to complain about something one has KNOWINGLY bought.
Besides, I have K-r since last February. Never seen ANY front/back focus issues, even in strange lights. Just like other millions users.
Moreover, since noone has burned PENTAX on one's limbs, nobody is forced to keep something he/she dislikes. Maybe he/she will like more some canikon cheap-plastic crap.
Exactly! If Pentax wrote 'may front focus in Artificial light' in the box, no one would complain .

Seriously I agree with you. It take skills to take a good photo (I confess I'm a male equivalent of the 'soccer mom' ), but equipment still matters. That's what I'm pointing out.

No one complains about manual focusing in the K-r view finder, but it's just when the AF fails, it's the first alternative you have. I agree you may not shoot in such conditions 90% of the time, but what the 10% and if you really have to make the shot?

For the record, I bought my DS when it was already a 3 year old model, and the K100 and D40 were already released. Mainly because of the prism. I passed on the succeeding models because of the pentamirror, until the K-r which I decided was worth downgrading from the prism.

Also I don't usually shoot in artificial light, hence the FF problem does not affect me too much. But I try to be objective about the issue (https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-r-forum/128330-yet-another-k-r-a...ml#post1364231) and not blindly label anyone complaining about it.

I haven't tested using the latest firmware though, I think the FF problem has somewhat lessened with some test shots. I'll try to test some time, and compare it with my DS.

Like you I'm a satisfied Pentax user. I'm not parting with my K-r any time soon.
09-17-2011, 03:52 AM   #90
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Camera shake

First I will say sorry for being naughty. second i have a dislexia problem (so that guy wound me up )and is it so important if it's
spelt wrong if you can understand it.?however if I can handhold at 30 and the odd 15 without shake even with a camera without anti shake why acuse me of that.Putting up with a problem is not the solution to the problem, that lies with the maker.I purchased this camera because of the long reationship (over 30 years)with the brand. prior to that I had and still keep a Zenith B . as for not being able to use auto setting as has been said to various people by Pentax then if you took your car to a garage (shop) and they said take out the auto transmition and put in manual( stick shift )you would think they were off their trolley.I have had results that are faultless with my kr and I do not intend getting rid of it unless somethig of total disaster happens.To blame people all the time and not ever the product will not help this situation I was wrong with my atitude but did I cast the 1st stone?. This forum is of use because we all put little pieces into the jigsaw artificial red lighting looking back that did seem to worsen some shots as for straight out of the box not everybody will have full knowlege of cameras so my comment on snap style (not Lord Litchfield / David bailey standard) I think is resonable.I don' cry on shoulders and hope a line can now be drawn in the sand .
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