More KR Issues

zorak · 10-05-2011, 04:56 AM

Hi all. I previously described that my KR was slow using digital filters.I have noticed another "issue".It seems that my shake reduction only seems to work in live mode. It will not work when the exposure meter is on although if i do a long exposure i can hear some noises faintly similar to what the SR sounds like in LV mode,but much fainter and if i turn SR off it still sounds the same. I wonder if my issues are connected to one another although i know my SR used to work.Maybe i can reset the camera somehow,if someone knows how or revert back to an earlier version on the firmware update,provided somedody has a copy laying around.

Philoslothical · 10-05-2011, 05:01 AM

A slight hum during long exposures is perfectly normal, with the SR off. Sorry, but I have to ask, how do you know SR isn't working in the regular modes (as in other than Live View)?

pxpaulx · 10-05-2011, 05:35 AM

Since SR is sensor based, it only engages when taking the actual photo. You will not 'see' SR at work in the viewfinder. In liveview if I recall you can actually see the SR at work because what you are viewing is direct output from the sensor. This does not sound like an issue to me, but a misunderstanding of how SR works.

zorak · 10-05-2011, 05:35 AM

well,the sound is the same whether Sr is enabled or not. I am basing this on how it sounded previously. I will have to devise some sort of test to see whether SR is working or not.

pxpaulx · 10-05-2011, 05:39 AM

Well, you can't know based on sound alone whether SR is working. I see from your post history that you were a canon user, which further makes me think you're expecting to see a stabilized image in the viewfinder (because that is how canon's SR equivalent would work). Why don't you do some tests rather than listening to the camera? Take the kit lens at its' widest focal length, and see how slow you can shoot with getting a stable image - I would expect to get down to 1/8th or even 1/5th with reasonably sharp results - if at these speeds the images are consistently, obviously blurred, then I would know there is a problem. Could you post some examples where you think it should be working and isn't? That would also be helpful.

zorak · 10-05-2011, 07:05 AM

I never had any canon lenses with IS although i have seen them and know exactly what you are talking about. i will test and post the results. Thanks

zorak · 10-05-2011, 07:14 AM

I have just done 3 sets of test pics. I see no difference in blurriness with or without SR. I tried the kit lens an 18mm and at 55mm using 3 second f22 exposures and 5 second f32 and actually one looks more blurry with Sr switched on . I can post the actual pics later when i get home if that would help.

GabrielFFontes · 10-05-2011, 07:48 AM

3 second is actually very very very long exposure...Sr wont help on that

pxpaulx · 10-05-2011, 07:58 AM

well, 3 and 5 second exposures are so beyond reality its not really even funny. seriously. you can expect 2-4 stops of extra exposure, beyond what is the traditionally accepted rule.

The traditionally accepted rule to get a sharp photo is 1/focal length (in 35mm terms). An example is at 18mm your kit lens is approximately 27mm in 35mm equivalent. The camera does not have a 1/27th shutter speed, but you can expect to get a sharp photo at 1/30th of a second. With SR enabled, 2 stops from that would mean 1/8th of a second exposure, 3 stops 1/5th and 4 stops 1/3rd. 4 stops is pushing it, and that is 1/3rd of a second - at 3 to 5 seconds you're talking 5 to 6 stops or more, which is completely unrealistic and unachievable.

Try this: shutter priority (Tv mode), and the lens to 18mm. dial in and take several photos (with each photo make sure the SR hand is visible in the viewfinder before taking the snap) at 1/30th, then 1/15th, then 1/8th, then 1/5th, then 1/4th - at this point you should see SR becoming less effective.

I'm done replying until you post examples using the above parameters, this is basic stuff here so please post photos when you have a chance, otherwise it is difficult to determine what is being done incorrectly (or if in fact you do have a camera problem).

pxpaulx · 10-05-2011, 10:44 AM

I've been more than helpful and pointing only out likely operator error, along with thorough suggestions to actually run the tests you are purporting to conduct. At this point, you need to post samples, simple as that.

zorak · 10-05-2011, 11:11 AM

Px. You are correct and i recognize that. In my defense i didn't expect SR to make a blur free image,but i was looking for any noticable effect. I do appreciate your help and i will do as you suggested this evening. If it is a case of "PEBKAC" ( Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) then i will be the 1st to admit it. Again i am grateful for the help,i just wasn't too happy with some "other" commentary that was made.

Philoslothical · 10-05-2011, 11:31 AM

FWIW, you will be much more likely to notice SR at exposure levels commonly used to take real pictures, after all this is what it's designed for. Paul's suggested exposure tests look spot on to me, try it and see what happens.

I hate to say it, but it really sounds from your earlier posts like you're starting to look for problems with your camera. For instance, I've never noticeably heard SR in action on my K-r. It works, never had an issue with it, but it doesn't make a sound that is distinguishable from the normal aperture/mirror/shutter noises when taking a shot. Best advice is to relax, get out there and enjoy your camera.

And offtopic, curse you people with your surgeon's hands. I have trouble with reliability of 1/30th or greater.

pxpaulx · 10-05-2011, 12:21 PM

Its all good, haha. I just wanted to move beyond the 'its operator error' type comment! If you want to test the SR out properly, you have to know what the reasonable expectations are - give my parameters a shot and post your results (with images), and everyone will be happy to help.

zorak · 10-05-2011, 01:08 PM

Well. I just tested.... After shooting 6 -1/2 second exposures with SR and 6 without SR i can definetly see a major improvement in sharpness. I guess i was looking for flaws as i do see some weird behavior in my camera as far as the digital filters go but nothing i can't live with. I must say i have egg on my face and i was wrong. I may have been remembering how my wifes Sony SLT-33 acts,you can hear SR all the time as it has an EVF. My thanks to everyone who was patient enough to try to help.

Philoslothical · 10-05-2011, 02:49 PM

Glad to hear you don't have two problems. That thing with the filters is very odd. Best suggestion is avoid using them, there is nothing there that can't be done in Photoshop or Lightroom, and an application like that will produce higher quality, more controllable effects anyway.

10-05-2011, 04:56 AM	#1
zorak Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 44	More KR Issues Hi all. I previously described that my KR was slow using digital filters.I have noticed another "issue".It seems that my shake reduction only seems to work in live mode. It will not work when the exposure meter is on although if i do a long exposure i can hear some noises faintly similar to what the SR sounds like in LV mode,but much fainter and if i turn SR off it still sounds the same. I wonder if my issues are connected to one another although i know my SR used to work.Maybe i can reset the camera somehow,if someone knows how or revert back to an earlier version on the firmware update,provided somedody has a copy laying around.

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10-05-2011, 05:01 AM	#2
Philoslothical Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,889	A slight hum during long exposures is perfectly normal, with the SR off. Sorry, but I have to ask, how do you know SR isn't working in the regular modes (as in other than Live View)?

10-05-2011, 05:35 AM	#3
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Since SR is sensor based, it only engages when taking the actual photo. You will not 'see' SR at work in the viewfinder. In liveview if I recall you can actually see the SR at work because what you are viewing is direct output from the sensor. This does not sound like an issue to me, but a misunderstanding of how SR works.

10-05-2011, 05:39 AM	#5
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Well, you can't know based on sound alone whether SR is working. I see from your post history that you were a canon user, which further makes me think you're expecting to see a stabilized image in the viewfinder (because that is how canon's SR equivalent would work). Why don't you do some tests rather than listening to the camera? Take the kit lens at its' widest focal length, and see how slow you can shoot with getting a stable image - I would expect to get down to 1/8th or even 1/5th with reasonably sharp results - if at these speeds the images are consistently, obviously blurred, then I would know there is a problem. Could you post some examples where you think it should be working and isn't? That would also be helpful.

10-05-2011, 07:05 AM	#6
zorak Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 44 Original Poster	I never had any canon lenses with IS although i have seen them and know exactly what you are talking about. i will test and post the results. Thanks

10-05-2011, 07:14 AM	#7
zorak Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 44 Original Poster	I have just done 3 sets of test pics. I see no difference in blurriness with or without SR. I tried the kit lens an 18mm and at 55mm using 3 second f22 exposures and 5 second f32 and actually one looks more blurry with Sr switched on . I can post the actual pics later when i get home if that would help.

10-05-2011, 07:48 AM	#8
GabrielFFontes Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 647	3 second is actually very very very long exposure...Sr wont help on that

10-05-2011, 07:58 AM	#9
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	well, 3 and 5 second exposures are so beyond reality its not really even funny. seriously. you can expect 2-4 stops of extra exposure, beyond what is the traditionally accepted rule. The traditionally accepted rule to get a sharp photo is 1/focal length (in 35mm terms). An example is at 18mm your kit lens is approximately 27mm in 35mm equivalent. The camera does not have a 1/27th shutter speed, but you can expect to get a sharp photo at 1/30th of a second. With SR enabled, 2 stops from that would mean 1/8th of a second exposure, 3 stops 1/5th and 4 stops 1/3rd. 4 stops is pushing it, and that is 1/3rd of a second - at 3 to 5 seconds you're talking 5 to 6 stops or more, which is completely unrealistic and unachievable. Try this: shutter priority (Tv mode), and the lens to 18mm. dial in and take several photos (with each photo make sure the SR hand is visible in the viewfinder before taking the snap) at 1/30th, then 1/15th, then 1/8th, then 1/5th, then 1/4th - at this point you should see SR becoming less effective. I'm done replying until you post examples using the above parameters, this is basic stuff here so please post photos when you have a chance, otherwise it is difficult to determine what is being done incorrectly (or if in fact you do have a camera problem).

10-05-2011, 10:44 AM	#10
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	I've been more than helpful and pointing only out likely operator error, along with thorough suggestions to actually run the tests you are purporting to conduct. At this point, you need to post samples, simple as that.

10-05-2011, 11:11 AM	#11
zorak Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 44 Original Poster	Px. You are correct and i recognize that. In my defense i didn't expect SR to make a blur free image,but i was looking for any noticable effect. I do appreciate your help and i will do as you suggested this evening. If it is a case of "PEBKAC" ( Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) then i will be the 1st to admit it. Again i am grateful for the help,i just wasn't too happy with some "other" commentary that was made.

10-05-2011, 11:31 AM	#12
Philoslothical Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,889	FWIW, you will be much more likely to notice SR at exposure levels commonly used to take real pictures, after all this is what it's designed for. Paul's suggested exposure tests look spot on to me, try it and see what happens. I hate to say it, but it really sounds from your earlier posts like you're starting to look for problems with your camera. For instance, I've never noticeably heard SR in action on my K-r. It works, never had an issue with it, but it doesn't make a sound that is distinguishable from the normal aperture/mirror/shutter noises when taking a shot. Best advice is to relax, get out there and enjoy your camera. And offtopic, curse you people with your surgeon's hands. I have trouble with reliability of 1/30th or greater.

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10-05-2011, 12:21 PM	#13
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Its all good, haha. I just wanted to move beyond the 'its operator error' type comment! If you want to test the SR out properly, you have to know what the reasonable expectations are - give my parameters a shot and post your results (with images), and everyone will be happy to help.

10-05-2011, 01:08 PM	#14
zorak Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 44 Original Poster	Well. I just tested.... After shooting 6 -1/2 second exposures with SR and 6 without SR i can definetly see a major improvement in sharpness. I guess i was looking for flaws as i do see some weird behavior in my camera as far as the digital filters go but nothing i can't live with. I must say i have egg on my face and i was wrong. I may have been remembering how my wifes Sony SLT-33 acts,you can hear SR all the time as it has an EVF. My thanks to everyone who was patient enough to try to help.

10-05-2011, 02:49 PM	#15
Philoslothical Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,889	Glad to hear you don't have two problems. That thing with the filters is very odd. Best suggestion is avoid using them, there is nothing there that can't be done in Photoshop or Lightroom, and an application like that will produce higher quality, more controllable effects anyway.