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Early Attempts at Bird Photography
Posted By: channeler, 03-06-2008, 09:22 AM

Got a Kenko 1.5 TC yesterday so thought I'd try it out on the only long lens I presently have, a Sigma 70-300mm DL. A far way short of the standard some people are able to achieve photographing birds. Still the Sigma + TC did a little better than I expected it would. What do you think? I've included the exif data but I'm not sure just how accurately they are recorded by the camera when there's a TC on. Not sure if SR works either. It was pretty dull here today so light was a problem. A K20D would have coped better with high ISO. The shots were hand held and I guess would have been sharper with a tripod, especially as I couldn't achieve high shutter speeds. Autofocus seemed to work ok with the TC. Surprised that on the whole the camera seemed to judge the exposure right. I thought I'd have to adjust 1 stop due to loss of light with the TC. On the first one I even used - compensation. For such small birds I think I either need 600mm or a hide. No PP on either except the picture of the Goldfinch is a crop as it was further away than the sparrow. It wasn't as sharp to begin with either but I've included it only for interest. Do you get Goldfinches where you are, those of you who live in Canada and the USA?

Paul

House Sparrow. 300mm +1.5 TC, 1/250th, F8, ISO 1600, Spot Metering, Centre Focus, Exp Comp -0.7, SR on



Goldfinch. 300mm +1.5 TC, 1/100th, F8, ISO 800, Spot Metering, Centre Focus, SR on


Last edited by channeler; 03-06-2008 at 10:28 AM.
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03-08-2008, 04:16 AM   #16
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200mm long enough?

Hey ranamar,
200mm is pretty short for birding and once you start you will want something longer. The people that I sit with use 400mm minimum. One guy has a digiscope using a leica spotting scope and it works suprisingly well! 200mm might be ok in the back yard though especially with a 1.5x tc or 1.7 afa. One guy the other day had a new canon d40 with 500 f4 IS and didn't know how to use manual metering or raw, man I could use a rig like that

03-08-2008, 07:54 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by ranamar Quote
Nice pics.
better than my current attempts at birds :P

What is a good lens to start bird photography.
Everyday on my way to school, on one tree, there are 4 Bald Eagles, and 3 hawks.
Same three, every day. Always looking in the same spots.

I would like to eventually try to get a picture of these, but my maximum focal length atm is 70mm.

Would 200 mm be enough? (there is a m 200 at the pawn shop that has been sitting there for 2 years)
ranamar

If you have good teleconverter yes providing it is a VERY FAST 200, because as you will see, I use a sigma 70-200F2.8 with 1.4x and 2x TC

I also use the 1.7x AF TC with my 300 F4.

take a look at the pictures linked in my first post. and the additional one, which was pure luck, with a very short lens not normally recommended for birding.

Chickadee taken with 500mm equivelent 300mm +1.7x TC only slightly cropped.
Blue Jay taken with 300mm equivelent - 200mm + 1.4xTC, cropped out of a larger photo.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/106132-post4.html

Merlin (small falcon) taken with 400mm equivelent - 200mm + 2xTC not cropped

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/187646-post19.html

To give you some perspective, the merlin is only a 10 inch high bird, taken from about 20 feet. It is really a very small bird, about the same size as a dove, and I was very pleased that I could get that close. The larger hawks or eagles in some ways are easier, because they are so big, but I have only ever gotten close to one once, and that was because he was holding a mouse under his claws at the time, more concerned about lunch than me. this was shot with 105mm lens and is about 20% of the frame

See the following link taken with the SMC 28-105 FA

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/182066-post33.html

Last edited by Lowell Goudge; 03-08-2008 at 08:00 AM.
03-08-2008, 07:59 AM   #18
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Did some experimenting with my K10D, Sigma 70-300 DL Macro and Kenko 1.5 TC combination to see if I could get into the Shake Reduction menu to manually adjust the focal length. The basic instruction in the manual is that the SR menu will be greyed out if there is a lens attached where the camera can access lens data. This is the case with my Sigma 70-300. However one section seems to read that if the aperture on the lens is set at other than A and Use of Aperture Ring is permitted in Custom, then the SR menu will be available and you can select an appropriate focal length. However when I tried it the SR menu was still greyed out so this feature must only be available with old lenses from which the camera has no chance of accessing lens data. But insights to the contrary very welcome.

Paul
03-08-2008, 08:20 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by channeler Quote
Did some experimenting with my K10D, Sigma 70-300 DL Macro and Kenko 1.5 TC combination to see if I could get into the Shake Reduction menu to manually adjust the focal length. The basic instruction in the manual is that the SR menu will be greyed out if there is a lens attached where the camera can access lens data. This is the case with my Sigma 70-300. However one section seems to read that if the aperture on the lens is set at other than A and Use of Aperture Ring is permitted in Custom, then the SR menu will be available and you can select an appropriate focal length. However when I tried it the SR menu was still greyed out so this feature must only be available with old lenses from which the camera has no chance of accessing lens data. But insights to the contrary very welcome.

Paul
Paul

I think you are correct on this. As I said earlier, I have had numerous discussions with Pentax on this issue, and proposed to them a menu, similar to the one upon startup with manual lenses, for a TC option. Pick 1.4x, 1.5x, 1.7x, or 2x and let the camera adjust the focal length accordingly for things like program line

03-08-2008, 08:36 AM   #20
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Lowell, do you think SR helps at all with a lens + TC combination or do you think it's better left off?

Paul
03-08-2008, 11:46 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by channeler Quote
Lowell, do you think SR helps at all with a lens + TC combination or do you think it's better left off?

Paul
Paul, I think it depends on the situation.

If you look at the posted photos that I attached to the question of is 200mm enough, 2 use SR 2 do not.

the blue jay was shot at a ridiculous shutter speed of 1/30, with a 300 mm lens hand held. I can't help but think SR had something to do with the quality of the shot.

The merlin was also hand held with SR on. I think it was 1/180th with 400mm lens and F8

the hawk with mouse was hand held, no shake reduction with a 105mm lens,

and the chickadee was 1/150th with a 500mm lens but with a 3 fstop flash assist, the flash is what froze that image. It was shot with an *istD hence no shake reduction but again the flash is why that one is so sharp.

Overall, I think the SR helps to some extent, as I said, to hand hold a 300mm Lens at 1/30 wide open can't all be my good technique, can it?
03-08-2008, 01:04 PM   #22
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Thanks for the replies,

Lowell, I saw that you used a flash.
Wouldn't a flash scare the birds away?

They are on the mid-top of a 25 foot high tree, so I would have to use maximum power on my ag360.

Thanks

03-08-2008, 02:43 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by ranamar Quote
Thanks for the replies,

Lowell, I saw that you used a flash.
Wouldn't a flash scare the birds away?

They are on the mid-top of a 25 foot high tree, so I would have to use maximum power on my ag360.

Thanks
I use a flash a lot with birds, never seen one fly away yet!

I have 2 flashes, an AF500 FTZ which I first got ith my PZ-1 and which works in TTL mode on my *istD, the other is an AF540 FGZ which is TTL and P-TTL capable and which I use on my K10D. I have Better Beamer" extenders for both flashes to give an additional 1-2 f-stops, or a little more distance. Both flashes are similar in power ~GN=54 (Meters) at ISO 100 and have fairly good reach.

ALso, for many shots I use ISO 400, which also allows for more distance. ISO 200 and ISO 400 on the *istD are virtually indistinguishable from the point of view of noise and image quality. K10D is also quite good at 400 ISO as you can see in the merlin photo.

Keep in mind things look a lot closer than they really are, my shot of the merlin is aboput 20 feet, with a 400, and it is about 2/3 the frame in height, but the bird itself is 10 inches tall, Just Imagine a sparrow in it's place.

My ultimate goal is either a 300 F2.8 to use with my 1.7x AF TC or a 500mm F4.5
03-09-2008, 12:56 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by ranamar Quote
Nice pics.
better than my current attempts at birds :P

What is a good lens to start bird photography.
Everyday on my way to school, on one tree, there are 4 Bald Eagles, and 3 hawks.
Same three, every day. Always looking in the same spots.

I would like to eventually try to get a picture of these, but my maximum focal length atm is 70mm.

Would 200 mm be enough? (there is a m 200 at the pawn shop that has been sitting there for 2 years)
Hi Ranamar,
I think other have said it but 400mm is kind of the minimum that most people using for Birding. I think right now the most popular way to get there (actually 500mm) is the Bigma, but at $1000 US dollars it is out of a lot of peoples budget.

Here is an example of what you'd kind of get shooting an Eagle in a tree ~20-25 feet up at 400mm... this was taken basically directly underneath (your results would vary if you couldn't get directly under the tree).

Immature Bald Eagle photo - palmor photos at pbase.com

If you want to go a lot cheaper but only get to 300mm you can pick up a used Tamron LD 70-300mm from KEH for ~$100. It a great lens for you to try things out and see how you like birding before you jump into something more $$. If you eventually decide to get a bigger lens because you enjoy birding then you should be able to recoup just about all the money you spent on the Tamron in a resale. If you decide you don't like it then you've only spent $100 and you have yourself a decent telephoto lens that will compliment your current line up that goes to 70mm (or again you can sell it for a wash).

Hope that helps!
John
03-09-2008, 01:05 AM   #25
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I see,
Lowell-
I just do not want to be the cause of the birds going away:P.
Palmor-
That seems about what I am looking for John. All the birds are within 4 feet of each other most days, so I think I am gonna go pick up a used 70-300, or something similar.

Thanks for the help,
Hopefully I should have pics soon. (finals this week though)
03-09-2008, 06:13 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by ranamar Quote
All the birds are within 4 feet of each other most days, so I think I am gonna go pick up a used 70-300, or something similar.
You might want to consider a straight 400mm F5.6. It might be cheaper and I think you will find when birding, you are always at maximum, unless you are very lucky.

Watch out however if youo go for a 400 with minimum focusing distance, some (especially older MF ones) are limited to 20 feet minimum distance.

Look for one that internally focuses they focus closer.
03-09-2008, 06:08 PM   #27
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Ouch,
The 400 4.6's I saw were ranging from 300-900 dollars on ebay

Do you guys know of any cheaper alternitaves? Or shoud I go with a 70-300+tc?

Thanks
03-09-2008, 06:34 PM   #28
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I am not sure about a zoom reaching to 300 plus TC unless the zoom is F4 or faster.

You will probably loose the AF function when you add the TC.

I use a 70-200F2.8 and yes it was expensive. I have 1.4x and 2x TCs/ All sigma.

I also have a 300 F4 pentax which I use the 1.7x AF TC.

this gives me 2 different combos at 400-500mm and relitively fast,

Other option is the BIGMA,.

None are cheap.

A slower 300 f5.6 will possibly help, but again consider only with this speed a 1.4x TC and a flash, and make sure it will AF first.

Last edited by Lowell Goudge; 03-09-2008 at 06:40 PM.
03-09-2008, 07:23 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by ranamar Quote
Ouch,
The 400 4.6's I saw were ranging from 300-900 dollars on ebay

Do you guys know of any cheaper alternitaves? Or shoud I go with a 70-300+tc?

Thanks
if cost is an issue, there is an SMC FA 100-300 f4.5-f5.6 in the market place

The other option, if you want low $ long focal length, is to look for a 500mm F8 mirror lens.

They seem to regularly go for between $150 and $250

positives of a mirror are cost and weight, negatives are fixed apature, relitively slow and out of focus donuts.

I have a 1000mm spotting scope that I put on th ecamera from time to time, focusing is slow and manual
03-10-2008, 01:21 AM   #30
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Lowell, my Sigma 70-300 DL F4.0/5.6 retains autofocus with the Kenko 1.5. I was surprised because with the lens at 300mm its starting aperture will be F5.6 before the TC is added. But if you were to go down the 70-300 zoom route Ranama ideally you could do with trying a lens/TC combination in store to check that they work.

Paul
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