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Arrested Photography
Posted By: 45 Mike, 10-19-2014, 11:15 AM

Yes, at the Spokane Airway Heights Walmart, I was arrested, because of a complaint from Walmart that I was taking pictures in their parking lot.

On the day of October 13th, I drove my mother into Spokane for a Dr. appt. After her visit, we stopped at the Airway Heights Walmart for some grocery items.

I stayed outside, with the car, while mom went inside for her shopping. I snapped a picture of this woman, outside.





She noticed that I had taken her picture and demanded that I delete that photo. I declined.

She then went inside the store and complained to the store management, who then called the police.

As I was loading the groceries into the car, the police showed up. They disarmed me, took my camera, and looked at the pictures I had taken.







The police officer explained to me that it was legal for me to take pictures of people in public, however it would not be legal for me to take upskirt pictures. As I had no upskirt pictures on my camera, they returned my camera, my pistol, and allowed me to leave.

Some may disclaim that I was arrested, however the legal definition of an arrest is an official that interrupts a citizen under color of authority.
The truth is that if a police officer interrupts a citizen from going about legal activities, for the purpose of ascertaining criminal culpability, that citizen has been arrested.

I doubt that either the Walmart store employees, management, or the police officers involved were aware of the utter irony of the situation, perhaps this view will clarify the absurdity of the entire matter.




Last edited by 45 Mike; 10-22-2014 at 03:59 PM. Reason: photo edit
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10-21-2014, 06:28 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by micromacro Quote
It seems like OP already tried it on Walmart parking lot.
But seriously, I'm not getting it. So many troubles and for what? To upset the girl, to waste own time when problem could be solved just at half a second.
Again, good manors mean nothing for photographers at all?
I agree in this situation. But choosing not to be nice cannot and should not be illegal or otherwise punishable. That would be even worse because it amounts to letting the insane dictate the law.

But suppose the person in the photo made for amazing picture. It's rude to make someone the subject of a photo without permission, but suppose you have a lone person walking in front of a building that just makes for a fantastic scene. Do you delete that photo on demand? That's where the balance between your being courteous and the other person being unreasonable gets interesting.

10-21-2014, 06:40 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
but suppose you have a lone person walking in front of a building that just makes for a fantastic scene. Do you delete that photo on demand?
Well... first I would try to show how really fantastic that person looks in fantastic shot! OMG! I would try any nice ways to ask to keep that picture. My charm usually works
There is no way I would ignore the request even without looking first what I got.
10-21-2014, 06:52 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by micromacro Quote
Well... first I would try to show how really fantastic that person looks in fantastic shot! OMG! I would try any nice ways to ask to keep that picture. My charm usually works
There is no way I would ignore the request even without looking first what I got.
For me, it comes down to who's more reasonable. It may seem a conflict of interest when one of the parties is yourself, but I think it's possible.

If I take a respectful photo that I think is worth keeping, then I'm inclined to keep it because I'll see the other person's request as unreasonable. It would be hard to deny a request from a lady whose skirt being tucked into her underwear caught my lens because that's not exactly the most respectful of photos. I don't see any issue in assessing the quality of the photo itself either because that decides who is reasonable. If I insist on keeping lousy photo that I'll probably end up deleting in a day anyway, then I'm the one being a jerk. But if it's something that's good and I didn't violate anyone's rights, then it's the other person who's being unreasonable about it.
10-21-2014, 08:45 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
suppose you have a lone person walking in front of a building that just makes for a fantastic scene.
It is a harder situation, isn't it?

Normally I don't worry much about a performer or sportsperson with an audience. Nor where some people are incidental to a shot of a building or beach, or whatever ... part of the crowd.

But where they are arguably the subject of the photo ... hmm.

I can see where a girl might not be alarmed when part of a wider shot of passers by, but once that lens zooms in for a portrait, it becomes personal.

10-21-2014, 09:54 PM - 1 Like   #50
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OK, I work in the criminal justice field. So here are some points that I can address;
Miranda rights: They are NOT required when you are arrested. They are required when you are under arrest and the cops want to question you. I have cases all the time where someone complains they weren't read their rights but since no questions were asked it doesn't matter.
What is an arrest? According to the Supreme Court it is when a "reasonable person" (whatever that is) would not feel free to leave. No magic words or actions are necessary and courts will broadly interpret a stop as investigative in nature rather than a true arrest. It's very fact specific. Mostly you loose esp. if not handcuffed or held at gunpoint.
Investigative Stop: Google "Terry Stop" and then what subsequent court cases say this is including what your state supreme court thinks. Simply put it's complicated. Usually in cases that end in an arrest the cops will claim it started as a "consensual encounter". Sorry but your experience is more akin to a Terry stop and consensual encounter rather than a true arrest.
Also, you could have played this incident an entirely different way than what you did. You know what they say about being your own lawyer.... Next time the correct response to the officer would be to say (nicely) "Am I free to leave?" If the cop says "No" then that's an arrest. If he says "Yes" then just walk away. If he asks consent to search just say "No".
If you really want a primer about what to do and what is your right to do when stopped by the police here is a nice short video that explains it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fgr9U1mIk#t=93

Last edited by eddaytona; 10-21-2014 at 10:01 PM.
10-22-2014, 12:18 AM - 1 Like   #51
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Did you ever stop to think that by antagonising others for the purpose of "defending your rights" directly leads to society changing its laws and removing all our rights!
I could understand if you had taken a stunning photo, but giving photographers a bad name for a terrible out of focus photo is a bit stupid is in not?
10-22-2014, 01:16 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddaytona Quote
What is an arrest? According to the Supreme Court it is when a "reasonable person" (whatever that is) would not feel free to leave. No magic words or actions are necessary and courts will broadly interpret a stop as investigative in nature rather than a true arrest. It's very fact specific. Mostly you loose esp. if not handcuffed or held at gunpoint.
Investigative Stop: Google "Terry Stop" and then what subsequent court cases say this is including what your state supreme court thinks. Simply put it's complicated. Usually in cases that end in an arrest the cops will claim it started as a "consensual encounter". Sorry but your experience is more akin to a Terry stop and consensual encounter rather than a true arrest.
Hi, I am quite aware what legally constitutes an arrest, and you are correct in your description. The turning point from an inquiry to an arrest is found at the moment that the police, by word or act, require, by legal authority that the citizen stop being free to do as they please, and behave in the manner demanded by the police. In other words, the citizen is no longer free to go.

With that agreement, with the police officer in possession of my weapon, and identification, I was NOT free to go. There was no need for me to ask, the circumstances set in motion by the police, required that I stay and NOT go.
The policeman asked if I had taken upskirts.
I told him that I had not.
He asked if I was armed.
I told him I have a permit, and that yes I am armed.

Now, if he had accepted my denial of taking upskirts and left, at that time, I would NOT have been arrested, as I was at that time free to go.

I want to be clear, that I understand exactly why I was asked about weapons, and I understand why he needed to see my ID and take my weapon, and I absolutely agree that his actions were necessary. That being said, it does NOT change the fact that until he took my ID and weapon, I was not arrested, and AFTER he took my ID and weapon, I WAS arrested, I was no longer free to go. No reasonable person would think that I was "free to go". I was NOT.

The officer and I BOTH were polite, professional and cordial. I also think were both mildly amused at the situation that forced us both to be involved in the asinine positions we were in. The circumstances forced upon us by the ignorance and stupidity of both the girl that started the mess and the management of Walmart.
The officer and I enjoyed a short but enjoyable conversation about photography while he waited for his dispatch to run my ID, and check the numbers on my pistol. There was absolutely not any confrontational aspect of our interaction.

I told myself that I was not going to respond to any further comments about my "arrest" because most of the comments made on that subject are just uninformed and inexperienced opinions and at least your comment made some allusion to the legal reality of what courts have ruled, if not the reality of my experience.

I have been arrested several times, I know exactly what an arrest is. I have arrested several people myself. I DO know what this is all about.

With that said, Please, no more comments on what an arrest is.

Thanks.

---------- Post added 10-22-14 at 01:59 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
Did you ever stop to think that by antagonising others for the purpose of "defending your rights" directly leads to society changing its laws and removing all our rights!
I could understand if you had taken a stunning photo, but giving photographers a bad name for a terrible out of focus photo is a bit stupid is in not?
Yep.
I think about that fairly often, actually. I have seen news reports of people who are protesting, and instead of being content to speak and accept that some people do not agree, will begin shouting accusations, and instigating confrontation. Being unreasonable and antagonistic. It is sad to see such displays of stubborn stupidity and ignorance.

For instance a woman shouting at me across a parking lot, demanding that I delete my images from my camera, insisting that I am a criminal, and then taking that baseless accusation and complaint to the point that I am arrested.
Sigh.

Once again, I will address the situation.
If I had agreed to delete her pictures, that would have given credence to her mistaken belief that I had no legal right to take pictures of people in a public setting. Let's be clear, I do have that right, as do you. Would you care to explain how much you would love to have a court determine that you do NOT have that right??
If I had agreed to delete her pictures, would she then demand the privilege of inspecting every image on my camera to be certain that I had in fact deleted the ones that she objected to? Would she insist that she had the right to examine every picture I have, to be certain that I do not have any that she might object to??

Where does that end? You were not there. You did not experience her utter disregard for anything but what she demanded, and her anger at me for having the impertinent and insufferable temerity to point a camera at her. If she had been able to get close enough to view the photos I had taken I am quite certain she would have pressed her insistence until I had either deleted every photo on my camera, or she had damaged or taken it from me. She was not reasonable, nor would I consider her attitude, demeanor or behavior civil, nor sane.

Then we may consider that perhaps i should have deleted the pictures anyways, regardless of whether she knew that i had deleted them. To that I say two things;
the deletion of those photos would not have in any way affected the trouble that she caused for me in the slightest.
if I had deleted those two images, I would not have had a story with pictures that encompassed the whole story, and you would have no reason to have commented, nor I to reply.


As for giving photographers a bad name, I hardly think that any action or inaction on my part would have changed HER opinions about photographers in the slightest. Was there some other person involved in my experience that I am not aware of?

The management of the Walmart? They were poisoned by her insidious complaint and accusation already, again, no action or inaction on my part would have changed their opinion of me, or you either.

10-22-2014, 04:38 AM - 1 Like   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by 45 Mike Quote
The management of the Walmart? They were poisoned by her insidious complaint and accusation already, again, no action or inaction on my part would have changed their opinion of me, or you either.
I told what I think about Walmart in general, and I'm talking from experience... Don't expect too much intelligence being there.

However, as someone pointed here, you take the risk associated with street photography. While you are waving your rights like a flag, people can be angry and react how they think they should if you bother them. Perhaps, you need to learn how to communicate with people you provoke to be angry.
It's not a rocket science. It's socializing with others.
The way of executing your rights not necessarily needs to be insulting others. And if it happens, perhaps, give them some respect explaining your intentions properly. Yes, respect.
10-22-2014, 05:50 AM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dewman Quote
I find it hard to believe that the moderators have allowed this post to continue on into two full pages. This is very distracting from the purpose of this site, IMHO!


Dewman
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It the moderation team deleted every thread because someone didn't like it or thought it was distracting, there wouldn't be many threads and maybe even no internet. If it is distracting, you could have moved on to another thread.
10-22-2014, 05:55 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by 45 Mike Quote
The circumstances forced upon us by the ignorance and stupidity of both the girl that started the mess and the management of Walmart.
You left one party out. :-D
10-22-2014, 12:06 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by micromacro Quote
However, as someone pointed here, you take the risk associated with street photography. While you are waving your rights like a flag, people can be angry and react how they think they should if you bother them. Perhaps, you need to learn how to communicate with people you provoke to be angry.
It's not a rocket science. It's socializing with others.
The way of executing your rights not necessarily needs to be insulting others. And if it happens, perhaps, give them some respect explaining your intentions properly. Yes, respect.
My first response is to agree in some way. If you look at the pictures that I post, you may notice that I rarely take pictures of people.
I am much more comfortable taking pics of landscapes, nature, etc. I have decided to expand my experience by intentionally choosing to include people as subjects.
That "risk" you mention is real, and I understand that. Taking that risk was intentional on my part in that effort to be a better photographer. I accept that.

Then in another way, I just sit back and wonder what planet you are from. Where did I bother that girl? I did NOTHING to injure or inconvenience that woman. I could have chosen NOT to be a better photographer, and not taken that picture.
If that woman had chosen to ignore me, la da la da, but she didn't. She chose to react, to be angry, to be stupid and to be ignorant. She chose to take revenge and make complaints and accusations.
I did not make those choices, she did.
Let me ask this.
Would you agree that it would be unreasonable for that woman to demand that Walmart delete all the images they have of her visit to that parking lot?
That is her being stupid, choosing to be upset at being photographed, in a place surrounded by cameras and notices proclaiming that she is being photographed.
Would you agree that Walmart is not committing a crime, by using video cameras in that area?
That is her being ignorant, choosing to believe that some act is illegal, merely because she doesn't like it.
Did I provoke her?? Hell no, she was the provocateur, she yelled at me across the lot, being angry and unreasonable.
Did I complain to walmart about crazy people making accusations of criminality?
Hell no, she did that stuff.

Respect?? I dunno, she offered NONE to me, and I saw no opportunity to offer her any.
Again, you were not there. I have no idea what kind of scenario you imagine, but I can assure you that if you had been there, you would agree that I did nothing to provoke the situation. She provoked me, and injured me and inconvenienced me. I knew that was a risk, I accept that.
It makes a great story, amusing slice of Americana.
I recorded that, but did NOT cause it. She did.

---------- Post added 10-22-14 at 12:15 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by kyricom Quote
You left one party out. :-D
I looked up the Dormouse reference, quite interesting, and I was wrong, you use the correct spelling and use.

I assume you mean to say that I was ignorant and stupid?

I dunno. Again I fail to see that I was ignorant or stupid. I knew that she was already being photographed, by Walmart, and I know that Walmart would refuse her demand to delete her likeness from their security systems.

I don't get it how anyone takes a position of her as some kind of victim in the matter.
She was not injured or inconvenienced in the slightest by any act of mine.
She chose to take actions herself that caused her problems, but those were her decisions and acts, not mine.
Her decisions and acts certainly did cause me injury and inconvenience. I am not claiming to be a victim, and I reject any view that she was as well.
10-22-2014, 12:38 PM - 1 Like   #57
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Mike, had to chuckle at that last image.."cameras in use" it illustrates your point well.

The first image, however, does worry me. The expression and body language show real concern and I wonder if, in our discussion of photographers 'rights' that we are missing a bigger picture here..?

That she asked you to delete her image then, when you declined, reported it to Walmart and the Police became involved may just have a more worrying motivation.

I'm sure others can think of more but how is this for an instance..

Lets say she escaped an abusive partner a while back...tired of being beaten black and blue she grabs what cash she can find around the apartment and hops a bus to as far as she can get.
In her new life there she is walking toward Walmart and sees someone with a Big Real Camera taking her picture and thinks...'omg that might get used somewhere public, a gallery, online somewhere the badguy might see it.'
The badguy might contact the photographer and ask where it was taken (though now doesn't even need to do that 'cause from the chatter on this thread we all know where it was taken)
Then the badguy might leap into his RV, drive to that Walmart, park up and wait for her to go shopping next.
The Badguy spots her and Boom!, or worse, drags her back to a lifetime of violence and misery.

I'm sure it happens every day.

Fear makes us do odd things.
Fear makes us ask camera users to delete our images.
Lets not make people fear the camera.

I know you're one of the Goodguys, Mike, so give some thought to erring on the side of caution and if, after reflection, you see any sense in my comments then consider removing her image from this thread and anywhere else public you may have posted it.

Thankyou for listening.
10-22-2014, 01:10 PM - 1 Like   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by 45 Mike Quote
If you look at the pictures that I post, you may notice that I rarely take pictures of people.
I am much more comfortable taking pics of landscapes, nature, etc. I have decided to expand my experience by intentionally choosing to include people as subjects.
Mike, I'm relatively new to this great hobby.

If you look at my Gallery, the pics are nearly all of people I hadn't met until the day I photographed them.

Can you see there's a big difference in their facial expressions from the one you took?

It was by reversing the order of events - making eye or verbal contact to get their assent, then taking the shot.

Show them afterwards if it's nice. Email them a copy if they request, and *everyone* will be happy! :-)

If you like set routines, that can be yours, too.

The quantity of shots you take will decrease, but the quality - and your karma - will go up.

Hope you're recovering from your ordeal.
10-22-2014, 01:35 PM - 3 Likes   #59
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Let me see if I can explain the difference between Walmart taking pictures, and you taking pictures. First of all Walmart as well as every other store has a policy that those pictures are not to be release for any reason except for Investigative purposes to the police/proper authorities, or for educational purposes within their organization. Teaching store security and personnel how to spot shoplifters. Generally if any of these images are released to the public, There would be a public outcry over the collection of this photographic information. Also at a certain point in time, these images are deleted except for those images that are needed for investigative/Educational purposes. They just don't have the storage space to retain these images for ever.

However there are no such conditions or contracts either written or implied, That would dictate the use of this information By you.. And that was probably her concern. In this case you chose to publish a bad picture on the web. And further describe the individual in less than flattering terms. You might claim to be a good guy, But you are not proven It by your actions here. Describing the incident is one thing. Posting bad photos of the individual and calling them names is a different story. And is probably exactly the kind of thing she was afraid of. This borders on cyber bullying. You should have just deleted the picture, regardless of whether it's your right to take it or not. And by the way she is not dictating the law by asking you to delete the picture. She was just expressing her concerns of you taking the picture. You could have calmed the situation by deleting the pictures as she asked. But by posting her picture here you have made things worse. And all the legal/moral flag-waving does not help your case.

Do what is right, Regardless of how you interpret the law.
10-22-2014, 03:33 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
- making eye or verbal contact to get their assent, then taking the shot.

Show them afterwards if it's nice. Email them a copy if they request, and *everyone* will be happy! :-)
Thank you Clackers, you make an excellent suggestion that I and others will likely find invaluable in this adventure.
I will take your suggestion as you have presented it. With gratitude.

---------- Post added 10-22-14 at 15:57 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by bobD Quote
Mike, had to chuckle at that last image.."cameras in use" it illustrates your point well.

The first image, however, does worry me. The expression and body language show real concern and I wonder if, in our discussion of photographers 'rights' that we are missing a bigger picture here..?

That she asked you to delete her image then, when you declined, reported it to Walmart and the Police became involved may just have a more worrying motivation.

I'm sure others can think of more but how is this for an instance..

Lets say she escaped an abusive partner a while back...or worse, drags her back to a lifetime of violence and misery.



I know you're one of the Goodguys, Mike, so give some thought to erring on the side of caution and if, after reflection, you see any sense in my comments then consider removing her image from this thread and anywhere else public you may have posted it.

Thankyou for listening.
I agree in some part with your concern for her possible safety concerns. This forum and Flickr are the only places that image was posted by me. I am considering an edit to the photo, to obliterate her features. I have seen, amongst the comments posted, that I should be more sensitive about using her likeness in the manner that I have.

My first thought was that my image was integral to the narrative that I expressed. However upon reflection of the many comments disapproving of my use, I agree, that her likeness is not integral to the story, and her identity should not be displayed by me. The image is integral, but her likeness is not. I will edit that photo to make her features unrecognizable.

I would make a slight correction however to one comment you made. A slight semantic slip. You referred to my image of her likeness as "her image". That is incorrect, it is my image, not hers, however I agree that I have abused her likeness. It was not my intention to harm that woman in any way, and I doubt that I have in fact done her any harm, but I accept that is a possibility, and unnecessary.
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