Hey all, it's been a long time since I've been on this board last. I've got some dancing photos to share with everybody today.

Everything was taken w/ my K10D and F 35-70 under natural lighting.

Enjoy!:















Thanks,

[vievetrick]

These are very nice. Great PP work. I almost would like to see the orginals on one or two to compare. Again great work on all counts.

[paden501]

How old is she? For some, if it isn't moving it isn't cool, which is why the fixation on digital video and games. Then again some youngsters get into photos via their mobiles, especially if they can distort faces and put people into funny frames.

She's 16. I've done several dance events for her in the past and she's always liked them. I don't know what the deal was with this one to be honest. Maybe she was just upset about the event as a whole and so the pictures didn't mean much to her or something.

Here are a few older ones:





Also, my fiancee brought this up. More and more these dance events have been hiring in a professional photographer to take action shots and sell them to the kids. They stan there in the center of the audience with a tripod mounted 70-200mm VR lens and take great photos at f2.8... So Beth seems to think that the girls get spoiled because they're used to seeing great pro-type shots.

[Lowell Goudge]

Also, my fiancee brought this up. More and more these dance events have been hiring in a professional photographer to take action shots and sell them to the kids. They stan there in the center of the audience with a tripod mounted 70-200mm VR lens and take great photos at f2.8... So Beth seems to think that the girls get spoiled because they're used to seeing great pro-type shots.

This is an interesting observation and quite a contradiction, and my appologies in advance for a slight hijacking of the thread

A VR lens on a tripod.

First of all a VR lens is used to eliminate camera shake, just like the SR on the Pentax DSLRs, so lets call that equal.

Second, you don't use SR (VR or what ever the Canikons call it) on a tripod

Lastly, SR does nothing to stop bluring of the subject because by nature, dancer's move. Otherwise they would call the art form something else other than dance

The only thing of value mentioned is that the photograper has an F2.8 lens.

You don't mention whether there is a flash used or not, and whether the photo's are taken during rehersal as opposed to during the performance with stage lighting only.

I think your shots are great. As you can see from my earlier posts, I have also shot this type of event, and even using a fast F2.8 lens, did not have the lighting to go below ISO 1600. Therefore, we are not making an apples to apples comparison with the "pro's"

With the same lighting, they would have the same shots you took, and perhaps not as good, your timing on the jumps is perfect. The lighting eliminates the background distractions and again the exposure is just right.

If you want to compete with the pro's and have ISO 100 shots, then go to the rehersals, and take advantage of flash and house lighting, but I don't think the shots will please you as much as those you have posted.

[paden501]

Lowell,

I wasn't implying that they were using the VR capabilities of their lens, but rather I mentioned VR to imply that they were using high quality equipment. I'm well versed in the uses and non-uses of SR technologies and I realize that the VR wouldn't help them on a tripod. For comparison purposes, lets just say that the f 30-70 lens that I used for this shoot was purchased used for $80.

Also yes I've been to events where the hired pro was allowed to use flash.

The point that i was trying to make is that people (and these girls in this case) lack appreciation for the difficulty involved because they're exposed to so much high quality work.

The girl's mother even made a comment to me last night that 'you need to work on your timing on the jump shots. They're just not quite there'

[Lowell Goudge]

Lowell,

I wasn't implying that they were using the VR capabilities of their lens, but rather I mentioned VR to imply that they were using high quality equipment. I'm well versed in the uses and non-uses of SR technologies and I realize that the VR wouldn't help them on a tripod. For comparison purposes, lets just say that the f 30-70 lens that I used for this shoot was purchased used for $80.

Also yes I've been to events where the hired pro was allowed to use flash.

The point that i was trying to make is that people (and these girls in this case) lack appreciation for the difficulty involved because they're exposed to so much high quality work.

The girl's mother even made a comment to me last night that 'you need to work on your timing on the jump shots. They're just not quite there'

Matt

No intended / implied lecture regarding SR and what the pro's used, and perhaps it is my interpretation that led to that assumption and pointing out the limits of SR.

If you only paid $80 for the lens, I think you have proven that price does not make the photo, as I think they are great shots.

I agree that some people lack appreciation for the difficulty of the shot. Personally, for this type of shot, I like using stage lighting only, I think it adds something.

I also appreciate that if I were to put my AF540 FGZ on the camera, put the ISO down to something reasoable, and let loose with this in a darkened auditorium, I would be thrown out and justifyably so. (At full power it might also blister the paint on the back wall)

I guess the real question is, what people "expect"

Using a flash will produce a nice sharp image of the dancer, with motion frozen, and a lot of distraction in the background, plus washing out of the projected background in your shots. Maybe some people think that is a good shot, because the subject is absolutely sharp and they look past the distractions, or simply don't care.

Your shots capture the event, it is different than capturing the subject only. As stated earlier, I prefer your shots.

As to timing, I will leave that for you to fight. You have seen my opinion already.

Edit note re timing, is it expected that the dancer should be absolutely parallel to the floor at the instant of the shot? Even a pro could spend all day and not capture that one reliably.

[MrApollinax]

I think the mother may be talking about capturing the jumps either just before or just after full extension at the apex of the jump. I'm guessing she is looking at the pictures from a dance judging prespective rather than the artistic one. I do not know the girl's ability but keep in mind that there are times when the dancer's form is "just not quite there" as well.

[paden501]

I think the mother may be talking about capturing the jumps either just before or just after full extension at the apex of the jump. I'm guessing she is looking at the pictures from a dance judging prespective rather than the artistic one. I do not know the girl's ability but keep in mind that there are times when the dancer's form is "just not quite there" as well.

OH NO!! MrApolloinax you sound like you know a thing or two about dance form but you obviously don't know the golden rule of dancing. You NEVER even CONSIDER that the problem might be that the girl just isn't that good... ESPECIALLY when talking to her mother! (Please read the incredible amount of sarcastic humor into this post that I'm trying to write in)

They've made dancing so disgustingly politically correct that it makes me want to hurl. ALL of the girls get a trophy, regardless of how well (or not so well) they do. The 'metals' range from silver to platinum (OoOoOoOoh) based on the judges score, and everybody gets at least a silver. This way everybody can go home thinking that they're just awesome and nobody has to feel like they didn't do well or that they have any room to improve.

Forgive me for taking this thread off on a tangent about my peronal feelings on youth dance programs.

Thank you all again for the comments on my photos.

[Lowell Goudge]

OH NO!! MrApolloinax you sound like you know a thing or two about dance form but you obviously don't know the golden rule of dancing. You NEVER even CONSIDER that the problem might be that the girl just isn't that good... ESPECIALLY when talking to her mother! (Please read the incredible amount of sarcastic humor into this post that I'm trying to write in)

boy you like to live dangerously don't you

They've made dancing so disgustingly politically correct that it makes me want to hurl. ALL of the girls get a trophy, regardless of how well (or not so well) they do. The 'metals' range from silver to platinum (OoOoOoOoh) based on the judges score, and everybody gets at least a silver. This way everybody can go home thinking that they're just awesome and nobody has to feel like they didn't do well or that they have any room to improve.

I think actually, whether it is medals or first place second place etc, it is not based upon "winning" but based on score.

When my daughter competed, they were awarded "firsts" "seconds" etc. and there were sometimes more than one or two "firsts" edit note, there were sometimes no "firsts" also.

Forgive me for taking this thread off on a tangent about my peronal feelings on youth dance programs.

Thank you all again for the comments on my photos.

you don't need to ask forgiveness, it's your thread. You can actually do as you please

[rparmar]

I think it's really horrible that your excellent images have been criticised so unfairly by a dancer's mother. The only way you could hope to do better would be with a serious off-camera flash system.

The 13-year-old in my family dances but thank God it is not the competitive system you are all talking about. She does modern pieces that are sometimes totally off the wall but very engaging, choreographed by an independent artist from Slovakia. Competition and dance should have nothing to do with one another, IMO.

Here's a photo I took younger classes where I had the liberty of getting up close and personal. Taken with an FA 43mm Limited in natural light. Nowhere near as difficult as your work.

[MrApollinax]

OH NO!! MrApolloinax you sound like you know a thing or two about dance form but you obviously don't know the golden rule of dancing. You NEVER even CONSIDER that the problem might be that the girl just isn't that good... ESPECIALLY when talking to her mother! (Please read the incredible amount of sarcastic humor into this post that I'm trying to write in)

Hmmmm.... In that case..... Everyone is so awesomely good at this that we all should get cookies! or Pie.... I should start a new thread cookies vs pie vs cake....


Now that the thread has gone of course and fallen into a ravine... I for one think your pictures are great.

[paden501]

All,

I don't mean to be cynical about competative dance. I just don't really agree with the way that it all works. Both my family and my fiancee's are pretty involved in dance (her sister and my brother both dance) and both of our siblings have gained a lot from their experiences. My brother is even going on to persue a college degree in dance.

I just don't really believe in programs that teach kids that 'everyone's a winner'. I realize that self-esteem is important to build when you're young but i think that we forget to teach kids how to not win, especially by the time that they're 16+ years old.

As far as being unfairly criticized, I was a little upset last night when they didn't like the photos. I was really excited about them but for reasons unknown, they were not. One thing that I can say about the situation is that I have only put some of the best photos up here but I did give them all of the photos including the negatives (about 100 photos). Obviously they were not all as good as the few that I have shown here and I wonder if they were expecting them all to be very high quality instead of just a handful. I really don't know.

[SCGushue]

Wow. Thanks for all of the great comments. It's too bad the girl that I took the photos for wasn't so impressed. I showed them to her tonight and she just kind-of ho-hummed at them. I have no idea what she was expecting. Oh well.

Well, I have to say that these are really nicely done under difficult circumstances.

If she isn't happy with them, then don't offer her any copies of the images.

When I was deciding what direction of photography to make my living in I avoided portrait and stuff like this. I found that there were too many people that didn't appreciate quality work or set their expectations of what they would look like beyond the scope of reality (and possibility ).

This series was nicely done and you should feel good about the output. If you want to color correct these add 45 cyan, 15 magenta, and about 15 blue.... your milage may vary.

Stephen

[mwcfire]

Great shots. I am very impressed they turned out so well.

Thank you for the settings. I would have probably tried AV mode just to get the aperture open, so since I am still learning I will try TV next time I am in that situation!

[paden501]

Great shots. I am very impressed they turned out so well.

Thank you for the settings. I would have probably tried AV mode just to get the aperture open, so since I am still learning I will try TV next time I am in that situation!

Definately try Tv. Anytime that freezing motion is of the upmost importance, Tv is your friend. Using 1/125s or above will work for freezing most motion of kids playing or dancing in this case. You may have to go up to like 1/200s or more if you're trying to get people running or skating fast, and even higher to try to catch a ball or a bat in mid flight.

Hope this helps.

[Lowell Goudge]

Definately try Tv. Anytime that freezing motion is of the upmost importance, Tv is your friend. Using 1/125s or above will work for freezing most motion of kids playing or dancing in this case. You may have to go up to like 1/200s or more if you're trying to get people running or skating fast, and even higher to try to catch a ball or a bat in mid flight.

Hope this helps.

You might also try manual mode,

That is what I do, set the exposure once per lighting setup, and leave it in manual. this is especially true during performances, where you may want to portrait exactly the mood set by lighting. Sometimes you really do want areas under or over exposed.

If you are in Tv Mode, think about your metering also. i.e. multi segment or spot, because the metering might not understand what you are looking at.

I generally try to shoot with the metering set to spot, and center point focusing, keeping the center of the frame on the point of interest. This gets that one specific point perfect in terms of focus and exposure, and the rest falls where the lighting dictates