The 100mm Macro Lens :

Every time I see some one ask for advice on what lens to start with I see recommendations for the 90 - 105mm Lens . From my limited experience I personally find this lens to be the least forgiving of just about all macro lenses , as well when I see pictures posted with these lenses they often tend to be ( honestly ) not that good . ( Sorry ) . Don't get me wrong , these lenses can take great pictures . But for the less experienced they may be just a little to easy to make mistakes with as these lenses tolerate very little aside from perfection . ( Make a mistake and it shows ) .

What we have to understand is that when we use more magnification , we also magnify mistakes such as movement and poor camera settings . Movement especially is a sharpness killer and will very quickly degrade image quality , be it movement from the subject or the camera operator . Also the shutter speed range is smaller with the larger lens , and dropping too far down will simply highlight movement and soften the image . I see so many people crank the focus distance back to the point where they could be running a 50mm lens . And then so many make the mistake of cropping for macro and just crucifying image quality . But we all have to learn and part of learning is eliminating the things that don't work . If there was ever a lens that needed artificial lighting ( flash ) its the 100mm Macro lens , it just helps to eliminate so many problems and makes the 100mm lens easier to live with .

Go back and read part one ..










Some positive points about the 100mm

Working distance for 1:1 is greater
More magnification ( good and bad )
A very popular lens size

Some of the negatives I think out weight the positives . I think the 100mm might be a good 2nd lens after you are taking good pictures with a 50mm . I see more average pictures taken than really good ones . Its more challenging to use and less forgiving of mistakes . When it comes to used lenses ? Which is more prevalent on Ebay , the 50 or the 100 ?

This lens can do some really nice things , really nice . But I have to say its more for the advanced photographer and if you are just out to try Macro then you just might be buying a lens to put on Ebay . So if you go down this road please be aware that this lens requires more dedication , and will disappoint you far more often than the 50 .

Talking to a fan of the 100mm lens size , I recall one person telling me of there success rate with their beloved 100mm .. Did they say that out of maybe 100 shots they got 10 keepers , and out of those maybe 2 or three were worth sharing on a forum . I have to be honest and say I was stunned that that person actually loved his 100mm lens . ( Ok ) Thankfully I do a bit better than that . Most of the time my keeper rate might be around 70% and my share rate might be around 40 to 50% ( good enough to share ) . And then depending on how many pictures I took I just might pick out the cream ( pictures that look good - composition ) Again , I find the 50mm so much easier to produce great shots with , I rarely have to take more than half a dozen shots and then most of them are cream . ( Hmmm I might like the 50mm )

Now with a Pentax camera the maximum shutter speed we have to play with is 1/180 ( flash sync speed ) , remembering we want to stay above 1/100 that gives the user very little to play with . We must maintain shutter speed to counter movement as the 100mm lens really highlights this and softens the image as a result . ( The more you move - the softer the image and the lower the shutter speed the more the movement is highlighted ) So with the 100 , shutter speed is critical . Another area that becomes a little tricky is your ISO . With so little adjustment available on the shutter and the ISO settings being so course it becomes very easy to burn the image or end up with a dark image ( not enough light ) . This means developing some photo editing skills and correcting such in post production .

I would really like to see some finer ISO and shutter speed options available rather than the antiquated settings we have now . ( Not that macro friendly ) Again it comes down to setting up your camera and practicing and testing to see what results you are getting and then fine tuning .

[clackers]

Now with a Pentax camera the maximum shutter speed we have to play with is 1/180 ( flash sync speed ) , remembering we want to stay above 1/100 that gives the user very little to play with . We must maintain shutter speed to counter movement as the 100mm lens really highlights this and softens the image as a result . ( The more you move - the softer the image and the lower the shutter speed the more the movement is highlighted ) So with the 100 , shutter speed is critical . Another area that becomes a little tricky is your ISO . With so little adjustment available on the shutter and the ISO settings being so course it becomes very easy to burn the image or end up with a dark image ( not enough light ) . This means developing some photo editing skills and correcting such in post production .

I would really like to see some finer ISO and shutter speed options available rather than the antiquated settings we have now ..

I love all the stylish, anti-contrarian advice you've been dishing out here, Old4570, but I think it's what's antiquated, not our gear.

The maximum shutter speed you can use with flash on a Pentax camera is 1/6000s.

Your cheapo flash rig won't work but something like the AF 360 has been available and capable for at least a decade.

In your rant against the longer 100mm lens, you also contradict yourself in Part 6, where you say your most versatile lens is a 150mm Sigma.

[old4570]

No , the 150 is actually easier to use than the 100 .. And the 50 is easier to use than the 100 ..
The 100 is the more challenging lens to master .. And the 150 is very versatile and in regards to MACRO , is possibly the most versatile lens . ( FOR MACRO )
The 50 would be the better general purpose lens . ( Besides macro )

And regarding the flash - You are 100% correct - My perspective in that regard is with the cheaper flash units - so my perspective will be limited .
The only pentax flash I own is the AF-200FG .. and its a 1/180 flash .. ( In manual mode it wont allow faster )
But thank you for your input , ....
Perhaps you should write your own guide ? since mine is so anti-contrarian .. I look forward to reading your advice on macro photography .

[BrianR]

No , the 150 is actually easier to use than the 100 .. And the 50 is easier to use than the 100 ..

Why is the 150 easier to use than the 100? It's not really making sense given your knocks against the 100.

1/180s shutter shouldn't be a problem for a 100mm here with the style of images and settings you've shown so far. At f/32, minimum iso, 1/180s should be able to kill off most any ambient as your photos show (especially as you near 1:1 magnification). Shutter speed will have nothing to do with camera shake at this point, it's all on the flash duration.

I also wouldn't judge the ease of use of a lens based on someone else's nebulous 'keeper rate' or 'share rate'. What counts as a keeper/sharer to me might not count as a keeper/sharer to you and vice-versa. I've no problems with my DFA100mm, and frankly I consider it a prime reason to use Pentax. Small, light, easy to handle, decent working distance, and not terribly expensive for what it is. It's not that difficult to use with basic technique coupled with patience. I've limited time with the DFA50mm (a fine lens to be sure), but the 100mm was easily my choice for a multi-purpose first macro. I may end up with the 50mm this fall, ask me again how I feel in a year I suppose.

[clackers]

Perhaps you should write your own guide ? since mine is so anti-contrarian .. I look forward to reading your advice on macro photography .

I attempt all kinds of pictures, Old4570, including closeup and macro photography. If someone asks for advice, of course I'll give it.

You'll have to forgive this being taken with a lens as long as 90mm.

[old4570]

Why is the 150 easier to use than the 100? It's not really making sense given your knocks against the 100.

1/180s shutter shouldn't be a problem for a 100mm here with the style of images and settings you've shown so far. At f/32, minimum iso, 1/180s should be able to kill off most any ambient as your photos show (especially as you near 1:1 magnification). Shutter speed will have nothing to do with camera shake at this point, it's all on the flash duration.

I also wouldn't judge the ease of use of a lens based on someone else's nebulous 'keeper rate' or 'share rate'. What counts as a keeper/sharer to me might not count as a keeper/sharer to you and vice-versa. I've no problems with my DFA100mm, and frankly I consider it a prime reason to use Pentax. Small, light, easy to handle, decent working distance, and not terribly expensive for what it is. It's not that difficult to use with basic technique coupled with patience. I've limited time with the DFA50mm (a fine lens to be sure), but the 100mm was easily my choice for a multi-purpose first macro. I may end up with the 50mm this fall, ask me again how I feel in a year I suppose.

A) I only own the Sigma 150 - And it's versatility is excellent .. Again this comes down a lot to working distance ( the further away you are from the subject ) . And because you are further away things become less critical ( camera settings ) , less critical = easier . ( For me anyway ) Also much easier to take photos of insects , they are less likely to run away ( Das good ) . Lens works well with and without flash . Now this lens is attached to a Canon camera . Flash sync speed with my very budget flash is 1/250 which helps counter movement , also more ISO settings to chose from making setting up / tuning easier ( the camera part is on the Canon ) . The Sigma is simply a very good lens . Others claim it to be the best macro lens bar none ( I wont make that claim )

B) I own a few 90 - 105 Macro lenses . I have taken a few thousand photo's . Where to start ? And I don't even remember all of them , so of the top of my head ! Lets start Pentax ..
DFA 100
M 100 F4
A 100 F4
Sigma 105
Tamron 90
Older Tamron 90 Adapt all
Vivitar 90
Vivitar 135
Panagor 90
Sigma 90 ( MF A lens )
Promaster 100 F3.5 ( Plastic Fantastic )

Thats what I remember owning !

C) 50mm .. Lets start Pentax again

M 50 F4 ( I have two ) Excellent lenses
A 50 F2.8 ( very recent ) yet to form an opinion
Sigma 50 F2.8 Manual focus ( Magnificent lens )
Sigma 50 F2.8 AF for Nikon Excellent lens
Nikon 55 F2.8 Macro ( Magnificent lens )
Vivitar 55 F2.8 Macro ( I have 2 = Magnificent lens )

I think that's it for 50's .. I have a few more but they are not Macro until you attach a tele Macro converter ... I have a few tele macro converters . ( another really good way to go )

Tubes , I have a few sets ( Make sure you buy auto tubes )
Also have some cheap AF tubes ( interesting )

Again this is my perspective : And you are free to have your own perspective and please feel free to post a guide for people to read ..

---------- Post added 09-06-17 at 02:23 PM ----------

I attempt all kinds of pictures, Old4570, including closeup and macro photography. If someone asks for advice, of course I'll give it.

You'll have to forgive this being taken with a lens as long as 90mm.

I hate to point out that I did not ask you !

[clackers]

I hate to point out that I did not ask you !

Short term memory?

I quote from your Post 3: "I look forward to reading your advice on macro photography."

Look champ, I'm happy to give you a pat on the back for attempting this series, but if people don't agree with all your opinions, that's life!

[old4570]

Short term memory?

I quote from your Post 3: "I look forward to reading your advice on macro photography."

Look champ, I'm happy to give you a pat on the back for attempting this series, but if people don't agree with all your opinions, that's life!

Yes , go start your own thread - No need to spam mine ! ( hope thats clear enough )

[clackers]

Yes , go start your own thread - No need to spam mine ! ( hope thats clear enough )

I think you're horribly mistaken if you think posts on someone else's Internet forum are your personal possessions, Old, some sort of private blog beyond public comment ...but you know what? In this instance, your wish is granted!

[old4570]

I dont think I am mistaken .. I tried being gentle and walk softly but it did not work !

[BrianR]

A) I only own the Sigma 150 - And it's versatility is excellent .. Again this comes down a lot to working distance ( the further away you are from the subject ) . And because you are further away things become less critical ( camera settings ) , less critical = easier . ( For me anyway ) Also much easier to take photos of insects , they are less likely to run away ( Das good ) . Lens works well with and without flash .

Yes, more working distance can be very useful. So then then why is the 50 easier to use than the 100? And why would the 150 work well without a flash but a 100 doesn't?

Now this lens is attached to a Canon camera . Flash sync speed with my very budget flash is 1/250 which helps counter movement , also more ISO settings to chose from making setting up / tuning easier ( the camera part is on the Canon ) .

This is nothing to do with a 150mm lens compared to a 100mm lens, but your preference for an extra half stop of sync speed. I would have to ask why this extra half stop so important to you when it looks like you're aiming to kill the ambient in every shot and are happy shooting at f/32 and minimum iso? You have plenty of wiggle room at this f-stop and iso to keep the ambient crushed, just be sure you're also at a flash setting with an acceptable t.1 time, but this is usually pretty easy with tiny subjects.

In what ways does your Canon have more iso settings and how is easier to set up?

The Sigma is simply a very good lens . Others claim it to be the best macro lens bar none ( I wont make that claim )

I've no doubt it's excellent, it's also not available for Pentax.

Again this is my perspective : And you are free to have your own perspective and please feel free to post a guide for people to read ..

Do you want input on what you're posting or not?

[old4570]

A) Its my perspective from using the lenses - I just find the 50 is easier to get good results - How do I quantify that ? Results , better quality images - there sharper . The lens is much easier to use , I don't need to concentrate anywhere near as hard on focusing on the subject with the 50 .. Also less magnification might mean less shake is transferred to the image ( Shutter speed VS lens size ) So movement is not that critical . Personally I don't have that much trouble getting close enough to subjects to use the lens at 1:1 so the getting close to subject matter is not a factor . I can understand quite easily why this would be a problem for some and they would prefer a larger lens for more working distance . ( apples and oranges ) Lets not forget ! I shoot hand held - Going to a tripod might change things drastically .

B) More shutter flash sync speed to counter movement . Yep , every little but helps when shooting hand held . With modern cameras being firmware driven I don't see why the capabilities can not be expanded or customized . I own Canon , Pentax , Nikon and I would like to see all of them offer more adjust-ability .. I would love to see shutter speed adjustable by 1/25 steps and ISO adjusted in steps of 50 .. This would mean being able to fine tune to changing light conditions more precisely ( But that's just me )
Setting up , I like to run max shutter speed for the flash and max F stop so that leaves the ISO for adjustment .. More ISO settings is good .
Canon has 100 - 125 - 160 - 200 - 250 - 320 - 400
Pentax K50 has 100 - 140 - 200 - 280 - 400
I will take every little bit extra I can get .. I had a Nikon 3200 that ran hacked firmware - I no longer own it as it just felt awkward to use ( too small ) but the hacked firmware was really sweet . More ISO and shutter speed options . I got my D7000 so as to install hacked firmware into it .. But the 50mm lens I put on it just worked so well and the Nikon has more ISO settings as well and so far its working ok . I was planning on getting a Sigma 150 for the Nikon as well and expanded firmware would probably be sweet .
Again thats just me - I will take what I can get . I would love to see a factory option for tweaking your own firmware ( custom firmware )

D) Yep , not available for Pentax - Why I had no choice but go Canon .. ( Or Nikon ) Circumstances favored the Canon at the time .

E) If its constructive

[Doundounba]

I also wouldn't judge the ease of use of a lens based on someone else's nebulous 'keeper rate' or 'share rate'. What counts as a keeper/sharer to me might not count as a keeper/sharer to you and vice-versa.

I totally agree. Things can vary widely - what subjects one photographs, at what magnification, how critical one is on focus & sharpness, how willing one is to crop, how willing one is to publish several shots of the same critter, what counts as a good subject pose, what counts as good light, and so on!

Without pointing at anyone, I can say that I do see many shots posted on PF (and Flickr) that are labeled as "macro" which I would not consider keepers if I had taken them. Obviously, YMMV.

Yes, more working distance can be very useful.

It's useful to minimize the chance of spooking the critter, but it increases the difficulty of getting good light, at least when using flash. A subject further from the light source means a larger diffuser and a higher flash power to achieve the same light.

So it's a balancing act. For some insects, getting close is actually not that hard. Again, though, the definition of "hard" depends on your tolerance for not getting any shot at all and what you consider a good shot in the first place...

[BrianR]

A) Its my perspective from using the lenses - I just find the 50 is easier to get good results - How do I quantify that ?

All these things a 50 has over a 100, a 100 has over a 150, so it's pretty confusing why they matter in one case but not the other. If you just love your 150 and 50s without being able to say why, that's totally fine, but your reasoning is pretty inconsistent.

B) More shutter flash sync speed to counter movement . Yep , every little but helps when shooting hand held . With modern cameras being firmware driven I don't see why the capabilities can not be expanded or customized .

When your photo is 100% lit by flash (as your working examples have been), once you've killed the ambient a faster shutter speed won't matter. That's my point. Believe me, I'd love a faster native sync speed, it would be useful when handholding and combining ambient+flash, but if I'm going 100% flash it's rarely ever an issue with macro subjects.

While it may be adjustable via firmware to let a dumb flash 'fire' at faster than x-sync, the hardware will prevent a proper sync in many circumstances (again, I wish they'd make it an option to let it fire and leave it to the user to determine what gear combos work). FWIW, the k-1 has an x-syn of 1/200, so things are improving.

As clackers mentioned though, if a higher sync speed is so important to you, it's probably time to get yourself a HSS capable flash. From your list of macro equipment, a used 360 or 540 (either generation) would have been a drop in the bucket.

I own Canon , Pentax , Nikon and I would like to see all of them offer more adjust-ability .. I would love to see shutter speed adjustable by 1/25 steps and ISO adjusted in steps of 50 .. This would mean being able to fine tune to changing light conditions more precisely ( But that's just me )

That sounds disastrous, you'd have two clicks to adjust the iso from 100 from 200 but 8 to go from 400 to 800. Balancing the three variables would be a nightmare if the progressions were arithmetic. Trust me, you want to keep the geometric progression, you want finer EV steps, maybe 1/6 or 1/10. It would be nice if they could include this as an option for people who want it. I'm all for user customization.

Setting up , I like to run max shutter speed for the flash and max F stop so that leaves the ISO for adjustment .. More ISO settings is good .
Canon has 100 - 125 - 160 - 200 - 250 - 320 - 400
Pentax K50 has 100 - 140 - 200 - 280 - 400

It's a menu setting, change your EV steps from 1/2 to 1/3 and you'll get the same progression as your Canon. You will lose 1/180s as an option and I don't think your k50 has X-sync on the dial. The user modes might be an option to give easy switching for your k50 model.

It's useful to minimize the chance of spooking the critter, but it increases the difficulty of getting good light, at least when using flash. A subject further from the light source means a larger diffuser and a higher flash power to achieve the same light..

Move the camera, not the flash. I usually have my flash(es) on lightweight light stands or clamped to things so I can adjust the lighting and camera position independently. I do have an on-camera rig that's just a simple flash bracket, but it adjusts to let me move the flash pretty far forward. For me, more working distance mostly makes positioning the lights easier (e.g. less likely the camera will block the light on your subject). I've had some fun times placing small softboxes around my DA10-17mm and DA14mm at their minimum focusing distances.

[old4570]

A) Confusing = Yes , because the benefits of each lens changes .. And quite obviously I am not the best linguist .. ( Writer / communicator ) That's my bad ! But it is personal preference and as the lens changes so do the benefits .

B) Yeah , I am not really hard core camera settings ( for the way they are ) I am more than happy to go sideways from the norm to get what I want . ( Give us custom firmware ) Nikon hackers are sort of doing that .

C) I dont think my K50 gives more ISO options , certainly I can have less .. ( in menu settings )